• Great Replacement Theory

    From Kaelon@VERT/BTTMLSS to All on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 09:56:00
    In the United States, there is a long-standing tradition - to the founding of the Republic - of denigrating outsiders and the established cultural or
    racial groups feeling "threatened" that they are being "replaced" by these outsiders, biologically and numerically. That this is now called a 'conspiracy,' in my view, is to do so without appreciating the history of how we have marginalized outsiders before they finally integrated in the melting pot.

    Whether it was the Irish of the 1920s, the Italians of the 1950s, or the Hispanics - there has always been resistance until finally there is a firm acceptance that there is more than brings us together than sets us apart. Ordinarily, the melting pot works if there is integration and, well, everyone "melts" into the new diverse identify of the United States.

    Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Kaelon on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 15:19:00
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to All on Tue May 24 2022 09:56 am

    In the United States, there is a long-standing tradition - to the founding o the Republic - of denigrating outsiders and the established cultural or racial groups feeling "threatened" that they are being "replaced" by these outsiders, biologically and numerically. That this is now called a 'conspiracy,' in my view, is to do so without appreciating the history of ho we have marginalized outsiders before they finally integrated in the melting pot.

    Whether it was the Irish of the 1920s, the Italians of the 1950s, or the Hispanics - there has always been resistance until finally there is a firm acceptance that there is more than brings us together than sets us apart. Ordinarily, the melting pot works if there is integration and, well, everyon "melts" into the new diverse identify of the United States.

    Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.


    A good example of not assimilating is having to push#1 for english and #2 for espanol. If you work in retail, speaking Spanish is a hiring point.
    Mandarin, Bahasa, Tagalog, Yoruba, Hindi or German, not so much

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Wednesday, May 25, 2022 09:29:00
    Kaelon wrote to All <=-

    @MSGID: <628CE430.59740.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
    In the United States, there is a long-standing tradition - to the
    founding of the Republic - of denigrating outsiders and the established cultural or racial groups feeling "threatened" that they are being "replaced" by these outsiders, biologically and numerically. That this
    is now called a 'conspiracy,' in my view, is to do so without
    appreciating the history of how we have marginalized outsiders before
    they finally integrated in the melting pot.

    Whether it was the Irish of the 1920s, the Italians of the 1950s, or
    the Hispanics - there has always been resistance until finally there is
    a firm acceptance that there is more than brings us together than sets
    us apart. Ordinarily, the melting pot works if there is integration
    and, well, everyone "melts" into the new diverse identify of the United States.

    Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.

    This is occuring outside of the United States. It is occuring throughout much of Western Europe, the UK, in parts of the Anglosphere. Not everything that happens in the world centres around what Americans think.

    You also seem to be missing the point. Making certain countries "melting pots" melts the demographics of those countries. Do you see China, Kenya, Nigeria, Korea, Vietnam becoming "melting pots"?

    Have you BEEN to London, Paris, Rotterdam, Marseilles, Birmingham, Amsterdam, Sydney or Melbourne?

    You are just bringing up trite talking points that make no sense. So become some Irish came a century ago, that justifies wholesale replacement of peoples?

    The fact is, your "ideas" are in conflict with the continued existence of an identifiable group. Perhaps YOU are comfortable with expressing political and social ideas which diminish and undermine identifiable groups, but such ideas have in the past been rightfully held as highly immoral crimes.

    And don't use square quotes around legitmate terms. There is clear documented and observable evidence of replacement, and putting square quotes around "Threatened", as if people had no right to feel threatened by being melting potted out, is incredibly arrogant and patronising.


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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Moondog on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 22:00:01
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Moondog to Kaelon on Tue May 24 2022 03:19 pm

    A good example of not assimilating is having to push#1 for english and #2 for espanol. If you work in retail, speaking Spanish is a hiring point. Mandarin, Bahasa, Tagalog, Yoruba, Hindi or German, not so much

    Completely agree. As a U.S.-born Cuban-American, I was always taught by my family to master the English language (as they did), even though we retained our Spanish language and heritage as part of our historical past. People who do not assimilate and learn the language are intentionally deciding to put up barriers and not integrate into American society.
    _____
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 22:07:48
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed May 25 2022 09:29 am

    You also seem to be missing the point. Making certain countries "melting pots" melts the demographics of those countries. Do you see China, Kenya, Nigeria, Korea, Vietnam becoming "melting pots"?

    Certainly not. These countries all have monolithic and oppressive cultures, where foreign populations are either brutally subjugated or placed in internment camps and truly become enslaved peoples or even worse - like the ethnically cleansed peoples of Western China, for example.

    My basic point is that "replacement theory," as discussed in populist U.S. circles, is a racist ideology that is at odds with the entire historical trend of the American melting pot and identity as an integrating and welcoming society for immigrants. That it is applied to describe the fear that White Americans should have for every immigrant allowed into the country, as if that somehow displaces or "replaces" them by erasing their cultural representation, has no basis in American history.

    There are countless examples of how welcoming immigrants and encouraging them to integrate and assimilate into American society was directly responsible for advancing the technological supremacy of the United States - from rescuing Jews from Germany's brutal holocaust leading directly to Jewish-Americans helping advance the Manhattan Project to defeat the Japanese, to encouraging the dispossessed and persecuted peoples of Eastern Europe being directly responsible for the creation of the modern American industrial state at the end of the 19th Century.
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Wednesday, May 25, 2022 20:27:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    You also seem to be missing the point. Making certain countries "melting pots" melts the demographics of those countries. Do you see China, Kenya, Nigeria, Korea, Vietnam becoming "melting pots"?

    Certainly not. These countries all have monolithic and oppressive cultures, where foreign populations are either brutally subjugated or placed in internment camps and truly become enslaved peoples or even
    worse - like the ethnically cleansed peoples of Western China, for example.

    My basic point is that "replacement theory," as discussed in populist
    U.S. circles, is a racist ideology that is at odds with the entire historical trend of the American melting pot and identity as an integrating and welcoming society for immigrants. That it is applied to describe the fear that White Americans should have for every immigrant allowed into the country, as if that somehow displaces or "replaces"
    them by erasing their cultural representation, has no basis in American history.

    There are countless examples of how welcoming immigrants and
    encouraging them to integrate and assimilate into American society was directly responsible for advancing the technological supremacy of the United States - from rescuing Jews from Germany's brutal holocaust
    leading directly to Jewish-Americans helping advance the Manhattan
    Project to defeat the Japanese, to encouraging the dispossessed and persecuted peoples of Eastern Europe being directly responsible for the creation of the modern American industrial state at the end of the 19th Century. _____

    How do you account for the same phenomenon elsewhere, outside of the US? Such as my home city?

    We are not talking about an 'ideology', but something that is observably happening.

    Sorry, as I've said, I've been to many cities, and SEEN the replacement. If you want, you can go to Paris, to London, to Birmingham, to Melbourne, to Brussels, to Marseilles, and see this for yourself.

    We are not talking about abstract things like unfounded fear, ideology or ideas, but an observable and real change.

    Again, the world doesn't revolve around what Americans think.

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Wednesday, May 25, 2022 15:18:16
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed May 25 2022 08:27 pm

    How do you account for the same phenomenon elsewhere, outside of the US? Such as my home city?

    See below.

    Sorry, as I've said, I've been to many cities, and SEEN the replacement. If you want, you can go to Paris, to London, to Birmingham, to Melbourne, to Brussels, to Marseilles, and see this for yourself.

    I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years been traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilating populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though being complicit as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially, Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restrictions on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without also providing them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that it has, in the case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners who are French-people in waiting. In contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very American in its melting-pot style approach.

    In short - creating a melting pot has to be a proactive act of integrating a population. Reactively mistreating an immigrant population includes passing laws that restrict their cultural and religious values, isolating them from the economic and educational opportunities that would promote their integration and advancement, and, of course, blaming crackpot racist conspiracy theories that white people are being systematically replaced by non-whites. Research shows that these are nativist tropes, and that the underlying social and political behaviors actually create racial tension as per the above.

    We are not talking about abstract things like unfounded fear, ideology or ideas, but an observable and real change.

    Because Replacement Theory was invented as a consequence of France's post-colonial demographic failures, the best place to start is being educated on how France's own demographers and sociologists have rejected Renaud Camus' paranoid racist fantasies. I recommend you start with Jenkins, Cecil (2017). A Brief History of France. Little, Brown Book Group. PT342. ISBN 978-1-4721-4027-2.

    Again, the world doesn't revolve around what Americans think.

    I start with the United States because (a) this is where I was born and live, and can speak best about what is in the American political mainstream; and (b) the United States, despite its flirtations with xenophobia and nativism, is the world's most successful multicultural melting pot, and can provide examples both of how it is done well (the Irish, Italians, Caribbean Hispanics, Portuguese, etc.), and how it is done poorly (African Americans, Central and South Americans, Native Americans, etc.).
    _____
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to KAELON on Wednesday, May 25, 2022 18:06:00
    My basic point is that "replacement theory," as discussed in populist U.S. cir
    es, is a racist ideology that is at odds with the entire historical trend of t
    American melting pot and identity as an integrating and welcoming society for
    mmigrants.

    I think you are hitting a nail on the head without realizing it, though.
    Yes, there are some who are racist that believe that any foreigner being brought into another country is "replacement" but, as you pointed out in another message, you fully understand the reason for assimilating, or
    melting into, the American society.

    I think the issue comes with the folks that you also described, who want
    to be here but don't want to be a part of society, and some that even
    expect society to change to their imported values. That is the
    "replacement" that seems to be going on these days.

    That it is applied to describe the fear that White Americans should h
    ave for every immigrant allowed into the country, as if that somehow displaces
    r "replaces" them by erasing their cultural representation, has no basis in Am
    ican history.

    It has no basis in history, but what about in the "right now"? Our
    government seems to have no issues letting people in of certain
    ethnicities, while others (most Asians) don't seem as welcome. Even their
    lack of issues for most hispanics/latinos does not necessarily extend to
    Cubans or Brazilians.

    There are countless examples of how welcoming immigrants and encouraging them
    integrate and assimilate into American society was directly responsible for a
    ancing the technological supremacy of the United States - from rescuing Jews f
    m Germany's brutal holocaust leading directly to Jewish-Americans helping adva
    e the Manhattan Project to defeat the Japanese, to encouraging the dispossesse
    and persecuted peoples of Eastern Europe being directly responsible for the cr
    tion of the modern American industrial state at the end of the 19th Century.

    The key words are "integrate and assimilate."


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  • From Utopian Galt@VERT/IUTOPIA to Kaelon on Wednesday, May 25, 2022 17:12:00
    Kaelon wrote to All <=-

    Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.
    Some think if we did not abort as many children as we do, we don't need much immigration.
    Its not exactly racist because we are also aborting many children of color as well.


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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Kaelon on Wednesday, May 25, 2022 23:13:00
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Moondog on Tue May 24 2022 10:00 pm

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Moondog to Kaelon on Tue May 24 2022 03:19 pm

    A good example of not assimilating is having to push#1 for english and #2 for espanol. If you work in retail, speaking Spanish is a hiring point. Mandarin, Bahasa, Tagalog, Yoruba, Hindi or German, not so much

    Completely agree. As a U.S.-born Cuban-American, I was always taught by my arn the language are intentionally deciding to put up barriers and not integ _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-


    When I was a contractor working for American Electric Power, former CEO Mike P owers had a question and answer column on the intranet site called Open Mike.
    Send in your questions, and he'll answer them. One employee at the Sotuh Tex as Project wrote in saying that after the company merger thye were not
    allowed to speak Spanish on the worksite. Mie replied and told her that she was at lunch on her her break time, it's ok to speak whatever language you wan t. During business hours, a standard language should be observed, and
    there's more employees outside the STP that will visit the site that do ot speak Spanish.

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  • From boraxman@VERT/PHARCYDE to Kaelon on Thursday, May 26, 2022 20:45:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed May 25 2022 08:27 pm

    How do you account for the same phenomenon elsewhere, outside of the US? Such as my home city?

    See below.

    Sorry, as I've said, I've been to many cities, and SEEN the replacement. If you want, you can go to Paris, to London, to Birmingham, to Melbourne, to Brussels, to Marseilles, and see this for yourself.

    I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years been traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilating populations; there
    is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though being complicit
    as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially, Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restrictions on immigrants (such as the headscarf
    ban, schooling mandates) without also providing them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that
    it has, in the case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners who are French-people in waiting. In
    contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very
    American in its melting-pot style approach.

    In short - creating a melting pot has to be a proactive act of
    integrating a population. Reactively mistreating an immigrant
    population includes passing laws that restrict their cultural and religious values, isolating them from the economic and educational opportunities that would promote their integration and advancement,
    and, of course, blaming crackpot racist conspiracy theories that white people are being systematically replaced by non-whites. Research shows that these are nativist tropes, and that the underlying social and political behaviors actually create racial tension as per the above.

    But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, based upon a very specific American ideology.

    As I have pointed out, America is not the world (though it is incredibly arrogant and imperialistic, to be sure), and the 'melting pot' that your country has decided is its manifest destiny isn't necessarily a goal elsewhere.

    You are taking it as a 'given' that we must become melting pots, and the issue is whether we do this succesfully or not. My argument is that the creation of the melting pot IS a moral hazard, regardless of whether it is done "successfully" or not.

    If the theories are "crackpot theories", the please tell me, at what point can immigration in these countries stop?

    What %ge does the white population need to drop to, in order for it be acceptable to change immigration policy so that it doesn't drop further? In ANY Western/European country?

    We are not talking about abstract things like unfounded fear, ideology or ideas, but an observable and real change.

    Because Replacement Theory was invented as a consequence of France's post-colonial demographic failures, the best place to start is being educated on how France's own demographers and sociologists have
    rejected Renaud Camus' paranoid racist fantasies. I recommend you
    start with Jenkins, Cecil (2017). A Brief History of France. Little,
    Brown Book Group. PT342. ISBN 978-1-4721-4027-2.

    There is an argument for every Western country. There are excuses for why England must become a melting pot, for why Australia must become one, for why Germany must become one, for why Italy must become one, etc, etc.

    The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

    Again, the world doesn't revolve around what Americans think.

    I start with the United States because (a) this is where I was born and live, and can speak best about what is in the American political mainstream; and (b) the United States, despite its flirtations with xenophobia and nativism, is the world's most successful multicultural melting pot, and can provide examples both of how it is done well (the Irish, Italians, Caribbean Hispanics, Portuguese, etc.), and how it is done poorly (African Americans, Central and South Americans, Native Americans, etc.). _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    The USA is falling apart, a dying empire, and I hear routinely about talk of Civil War. From out here, it looks like a clusterf*%k, mired in racial and identity issues, tearing each other apart for matters of "diversity" and "inclusion".

    What %ge does the white population need to drop to, in order for it be acceptable to change immigration policy so that it doesn't drop further? In ANY Western/European country?

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Thursday, May 26, 2022 13:39:59
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Wed May 25 2022 03:18 pm

    I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years been traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilatin
    populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though being complicit as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially, Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restricti
    on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without also providing them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that it has, in the
    case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners who are French-people in waiting. In contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very American in
    its melting-pot style approach.


    I can't talk much about France, but regarding integration of Moroccans into Andalucía...

    The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people votes the most for parties with anti-immigration programs. This alone suggests integration is not going that well. The
    Barcelona area is turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started mugging people in broad daylight after they started soaking immigrants in without a plan as to what to do with them.

    Meanwhile, areas with Russian immigrants don't have anti-Russian parties claiming for them to be kicked out despite the fact many of those Russians are NOT trying to integrate (living in
    Russian neighbourhoods and villages, to the point you would say some towns are Russian).

    I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems to want from immigrants is to come in, forget their culture and adopt the local customes. I think that for a lot of
    groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is anti-diverse (ie. if you want to import Moroccans and strip their culture away from them so they are just
    Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing your culture on others).

    The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that are unnaceptable by Spanish standards, such as partaking in genital mutilation. In order for them to fit in you have to
    engineer them and turn them into something they are currently not.

    On the other hand, I cannot think of clear examples that made Irish, Italian and Polish immigrants unnaceptable to American Standards. Meanwhile, a Spaniard would not be an acceptable immigrant
    for Saudi Arabia because the first thing a Spaniard would do is try to produce beer in some cellar, which for Arab authorities is a very unacceptable breach of social manners. In fact they tend
    to confine Spaniards into special camps over there.

    My point is that some cultures and worldwiews are compatible and others are not. It is easy to brag that your nation is importing Italians successfully without issues when Italians are similar
    to your own culture. However, if you want to get people impressed you will have to import people with very divergent values (such as cultures who partake in arranged marriages, imposed class
    systems, feudal policies, ritual mutilation and so on). I bet you won't be able to, and if you do, it would be by turning those people into something else...


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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dumas Walker on Thursday, May 26, 2022 14:56:34
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Dumas Walker to KAELON on Wed May 25 2022 06:06 pm

    Dumas,

    I think we're 100% on the same page of this view.

    I think you are hitting a nail on the head without realizing it, though. Yes, there are some who are racist that believe that any foreigner being brought into another country is "replacement" but, as you pointed out in another message, you fully understand the reason for assimilating, or melting into, the American society.

    I think the issue comes with the folks that you also described, who want
    to be here but don't want to be a part of society, and some that even
    expect society to change to their imported values. That is the "replacement" that seems to be going on these days.

    Completely agree. I was always taught, as a U.S.-born Cuban-American, to be proud of my culture, but prouder even still of being an American. I credit that mindset as being widely pervasive in the Cuban-American Community: we all know English fluently, we are all politically and civically active in American society, and in most cases, there's really no interest in "returning to Cuba" (far from it). Perhaps we better fit the mold of the classic immigrant population for the United States - those seeking a better life for themselves and their children, and to start a new future in the American Dream.

    It has no basis in history, but what about in the "right now"? Our government seems to have no issues letting people in of certain
    ethnicities, while others (most Asians) don't seem as welcome. Even their lack of issues for most hispanics/latinos does not necessarily extend to Cubans or Brazilians.

    Yes. I think insular communities emerge for a variety of reasons, but we have an obligation as a welcoming country to provoke and persuade these communities to open up, engage, and integrate and assimilate into the American melting pot. Their traditions, cultures, world-views, etc., make America stronger. But they must, you know, "melt."

    The key words are "integrate and assimilate."

    100%.
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BORAXMAN on Thursday, May 26, 2022 16:19:00
    The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

    And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is
    not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.


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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Thursday, May 26, 2022 22:50:00
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Thu May 26 2022 01:39 pm

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Wed May 25 2022 03:18 pm

    I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 yea populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, thoug on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without als case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigner its melting-pot style approach.


    I can't talk much about France, but regarding integration of Moroccans into

    The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people votes th Barcelona area is turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started

    Meanwhile, areas with Russian immigrants don't have anti-Russian parties cla Russian neighbourhoods and villages, to the point you would say some towns a

    I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems to w groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing your culture on others).

    The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that are un engineer them and turn them into something they are currently not.

    On the other hand, I cannot think of clear examples that made Irish, Italian for Saudi Arabia because the first thing a Spaniard would do is try to produ to confine Spaniards into special camps over there.

    My point is that some cultures and worldwiews are compatible and others are to your own culture. However, if you want to get people impressed you will h systems, feudal policies, ritual mutilation and so on). I bet you won't be a


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    I get the impression that some European immigrants were greeted poorly
    because they dressed and spoke differently, had funny sounding names, and
    some practices from the old country may have seemed alien or backward to Americans that were a generation or more separated from the old countries.

    During the late 1800's and early 20th century, several families
    "Americanized" their names. Some had no choice when Ellis Island opened, and whoever documented your arrival wrote your name down as he heard it. For example, a last name such as d'Augustino may have been written down as Diaugustino. Names such as Braun became Brown, or Otto became Ott. This was all done to differentiate new folks from the locals.

    Another issue that immigrants had to worry about was employment and finding
    a place to live. Imagine selling everything you had to get a trip to the US, then have trouble getting a job or read a contract or legal agreement because you can't speak english very well? My mothers's father came over to the US
    as a teen with his family from Poland. Depending on who I'd speak with, some would say they were Russian, as if the border had moved or land changed hands when they left around the time of the Russian Revolution. They didn't have enough money to take everyone, so one of the older brothers of my grandfather stayed behind, in hope they will send him a letter of where they found a
    home. A couple of years went by, and his brothers and sisters reached
    marrying age and began having families and land of their own in Southwest Michigan. They purchased a ticket and sent it along with money to the
    brother left behind,and when he arrived a the port to board the ship, he saw several men gambling, and figured he could come to the US much richer than he was. He ended up losing most of his money and had to give up his ticket.
    all he could afford is a trip tot he US in steerage, the bottom hold where the y kept the livestock. When he arrived in the US, he was processed through Ellis Island. Having no money (and no address of where to go)he stayed on
    the Island until he could figure a way to contact his family. One day a man comes out to the Island, asking if anyone has experience working of a farm
    and picking fruits and vegetables. He figures he will get a job, then look
    for his family. He was placed on a boat and received a trip around the Great Lakes to the city of Benton Harbor, Michigan. From there he would board a tru ck every morning and taken to a farm or orchard. He rented a place in Saint Joseph, MI across the bridge from Benton Harbor. One day coming home from work, he was walking across the bridge, and in the opposite lane was one of
    his brothers bringing a truckload of grain to the grain bins Benton Harbor. It turned out he ended 20 miles away from where the rest of the family was living.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dumas Walker on Friday, May 27, 2022 20:31:00
    Dumas Walker wrote to BORAXMAN <=-

    @MSGID: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <628F5AB7.9038.dove-deb@pharcyde.org>
    The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

    And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration,
    it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

    "Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.

    I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Arelor on Friday, May 27, 2022 20:35:00
    Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

    @MSGID: <628FC97F.6879.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <628EAB28.59762.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on
    Wed May 25 2022 03:18 pm

    I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years
    b
    een traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilatin
    populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though
    be
    ing complicit as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially,
    Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restricti
    on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without also
    pr
    oviding them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that it has, in the
    case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners
    wh
    o are French-people in waiting. In contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very American in
    its melting-pot style approach.


    I can't talk much about France, but regarding integration of Moroccans into Andalucşa...

    The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people
    votes the most for parties with anti-immigration programs. This alone suggests integration is not going that well. The Barcelona area is
    turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started mugging
    people in broad daylight after they started soaking immigrants in
    without a plan as to what to do with them.

    Meanwhile, areas with Russian immigrants don't have anti-Russian
    parties claiming for them to be kicked out despite the fact many of
    those Russians are NOT trying to integrate (living in Russian neighbourhoods and villages, to the point you would say some towns are Russian).

    I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems
    to want from immigrants is to come in, forget their culture and adopt
    the local customes. I think that for a lot of groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is anti-diverse (ie.
    if you want to import Moroccans and strip their culture away from them
    so they are just Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing
    your culture on others).

    The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that
    are unnaceptable by Spanish standards, such as partaking in genital mutilation. In order for them to fit in you have to engineer them and
    turn them into something they are currently not.

    On the other hand, I cannot think of clear examples that made Irish, Italian and Polish immigrants unnaceptable to American Standards. Meanwhile, a Spaniard would not be an acceptable immigrant for Saudi Arabia because the first thing a Spaniard would do is try to produce
    beer in some cellar, which for Arab authorities is a very unacceptable breach of social manners. In fact they tend to confine Spaniards into special camps over there.

    My point is that some cultures and worldwiews are compatible and others are not. It is easy to brag that your nation is importing Italians successfully without issues when Italians are similar to your own
    culture. However, if you want to get people impressed you will have to import people with very divergent values (such as cultures who partake
    in arranged marriages, imposed class systems, feudal policies, ritual mutilation and so on). I bet you won't be able to, and if you do, it
    would be by turning those people into something else...

    Even then, when cultures are similar, the people are similar, it often fails. Take Yugoslavia for example.

    History is littered with ethnic conflict. Proximity and diversity leads to conflict. Our "leaders" are creating future conflict, just so some companies can use cheap labour.

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  • From the doctor@VERT/QBBS to DUMAS WALKER on Friday, May 27, 2022 17:13:00

    --- DUMAS WALKER wrote --- > The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become > diverse.

    And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it
    is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

    Colonialism?


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  • From Kaelon@VERT to boraxman on Friday, May 27, 2022 09:31:44
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: boraxman to Kaelon on Thu May 26 2022 08:45 pm

    But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, based upon a very specific American ideology.

    The fact that you even pose this question reflects that you view the world - and your country - in racially monolithic terms. If you are interested in advancing one race at the cost of another race, then simply embrace your racist or racialist identity, rather than bristling at the term. It is, simply put, nativist (at best) and racist (at worst) to state that immigration is a form of "social engineering," when in fact, countries that endure immigration are complicit in the factors that led up to immigration being "forced" upon it.

    As I have pointed out, America is not the world (though it is incredibly arrogant and imperialistic, to be sure), and the 'melting pot' that your country has decided is its manifest destiny isn't necessarily a goal elsewhere.

    You are taking it as a 'given' that we must become melting pots, and the issue is whether we do this succesfully or not. My argument is that the creation of the melting pot IS a moral hazard, regardless of whether it is done "successfully" or not.

    If you want to halt immigration altogether (which seems to be what you are advocating here - you don't want a "melting pot," and you also don't want non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) - then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rate (and this is controversial) but until your country generates 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it in effect cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born, primarily, out of economic factors - not societal ones), and so, you should consider making it more economically appealing for men and women to procreate. Parental leave, social safety nets, childcare, and broader incentives for training and enabling populations are multi-generational investments. But as the Nordic countries will show, they can be successfully applied.

    If the theories are "crackpot theories", the please tell me, at what point can immigration in these countries stop?

    Your agenda is pretty clear. You view immigration as a threat to the cultural identity of your country; there is certainly merit in discussing how countries that are incapable of building true melting pots are threatened by unassimilating populations (like France's muslims, or Germany's turkic populations). But Western European countries are generally complicit in the factors that led to the uptick in immigration to begin with: such as France's imperial ambitions in Africa leading to vast destabilization of the magreb and sub-saharan region, or Italy's brutal occupation of Ethiopia and interference in Lybia. Europeans haven't been willing to pay reparations to those countries, or invest in African development, and so you have a situation where entire populations are trapped in failing states that the Europeans raped and pillaged as recently as the 1960s.

    What %ge does the white population need to drop to, in order for it be acceptable to change immigration policy so that it doesn't drop further? In ANY Western/European country?

    I think you have a beef with your country's legislative policies, and so you should take it up in the political process. Some countries have effectively halted or redirected immigration (see: Austria and Hungary) only to discover massive shortfalls in talent, population, and/or tax-bases. White Europeans haven't generally taken the steps necessary to create monolithically racial states the way that the Asians culturally do, but again, I would point to the Nordic example, which emphasizes integration and assimilation but discourages immigration through raising birthrates of its own population.

    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Friday, May 27, 2022 09:42:13
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Thu May 26 2022 01:39 pm

    The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people votes the most for parties with anti-immigration programs. This alone suggests integration is not going that well. The Barcelona area is turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started mugging people in broad daylight after they started soaking immigrants in without a plan as to what to do with them.

    I appreciate the view. Though my family immigrated to the United States from Cuba, all sides of my family are traced to Spain (Malaga, Sevilla, and Galicia, predominantly), and so I take a deep interest in the Spanish experiment of the modern state.

    My general impression of Barcelona and Catalunya in general, is that the suppression of Catalan identity - seen as a threat to the overarching Spanish identity - is a far more serious threat to Spain's cultural values than the permissible importation of Moroccans into the region. Nevertheless, the formation of Spain consists of largely unassimilated regional powers from the middle ages which worked cooperatively (and today, autonomously) for the idea of the modern Spanish State. This only works if the idea of an overarching Spain prevails, and while it certainly was forced upon the population through Monarchy and Fascism, today, the democratic experiment is producing uneven results that have nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with failed assimilation of languages and cultures.

    I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems to want from immigrants is to come in, forget their culture and adopt the local customes. I think that for a lot of groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is anti-diverse (ie. if you want to import Moroccans and strip their culture away from them so they are just
    Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing your culture on others).

    The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that are unnaceptable by Spanish standards, such as partaking in genital mutilation. In order for them to fit in you have to engineer them and turn them into something they are currently not.

    It's easy to forget that in the United States, Mediterraneans were seen as sub-human aliens who threatened the secular state for one primary reason: Catholicism. In fact, it wasn't until the 1960s (after Vatican II) that Roman Catholicism became generally acceptable in political life - and John F. Kennedy's election, which was also controversial given his religion and ethnicity, was a key factor behind this acceptance.

    But the Irish and the Italians were both seen to be monarchists and theocrats, beholden to the Pope, and a threat to the identity of the American Secular State. Because they weren't protestant, and did not come from a true protestant culture like the English, Scottish, Germans, Dutch, and Scandinavians - they were largely seen with suspicion. They also, unlike the French and Spanish, never had the benefit of historical connection with the creation of the U.S. There was widespread "racial" violence against Irish and Italian people throughout the 1800s and early 1900s, primarily because of religion which was seen as truly alien to the American idea of life. This only abided when it became clear that Irish and Italians would assimilate into the American way of life by openly pledging allegiance to the United States, and rejecting the Pope's material authority. And this was highly controversial, at the time, but now is a given pretty much everywhere in the world.

    I raise this example because failed integration and assimilation stems from not being able to create a common framework of values that immigrants can relate to and prioritize over their old identity.

    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dumas Walker on Friday, May 27, 2022 09:46:12
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on Thu May 26 2022 04:19 pm

    The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

    And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

    I would argue that there are very few White/Western countries that aren't facing demographic crisis that, unfortunately, makes them beholden to immigrants for all sorts of reasons (population replacement, chief among them, but so, too, are economic needs). The United States also has this problem with Central and Southern Americans -- in sharp contrast to the fully-assimilated Latin / Caribbean Americans -- because it relies upon Central and Southern Americans to serve as an economic under-class and labor force population.

    These demographic crises are caused by a lot of factors, but chief among them are the creation of imperial dependencies upon non-native populations for a variety of reasons. Conversely, White countries that never engaged in imperial ambitions and thus became dependent (economically or numerically) on non-White populations -- such as Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, and Norway -- aren't called racist for maintaining their white culture. They are just seen as not having been complicit in the factors that led to the collapse of their own demographic stability and the brutalization of foreign populations.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Friday, May 27, 2022 13:17:41
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to boraxman on Fri May 27 2022 09:31 am

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: boraxman to Kaelon on Thu May 26 2022 08:45 pm

    But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, ba upon a very specific American ideology.

    The fact that you even pose this question reflects that you view the world - and your country - in racially monolithic terms. If you are interested in advancing one race at the cost of another race, then simply embrace your rac or racialist identity, rather than bristling at the term. It is, simply put nativist (at best) and racist (at worst) to state that immigration is a form "social engineering," when in fact, countries that endure immigration are complicit in the factors that led up to immigration being "forced" upon it.


    Immigration is not a form of social engineering but it is often used as a tool for engineering policies.

    In its most basic form, once a political party figures out that he can get a particular group of immigrants, it is likely to buy them out using the money of the rest of the tax payers. At that point the tax payers will feel cheated.

    Morocco is known for using immigration as a political threat. They use immigration as a bargaining chip during lots of negotiations. "Do as I say or I will let all the immigrants who come to Morocco in their way to Spain flow freely through your borders."

    Also I find accusing countries that take immigrants of being the cause of the flow of immigrants to be outright victim shaming. The Califato also raped and pillaged the folks of the area which today is Spain and Portugal but they didn't get a mass migration from Europe as a result.



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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Friday, May 27, 2022 13:37:04
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Fri May 27 2022 09:42 am

    My general impression of Barcelona and Catalunya in general, is that the suppression of Catalan identity - seen as a threat to the overarching Spanis identity - is a far more serious threat to Spain's cultural values than the permissible importation of Moroccans into the region. Nevertheless, the formation of Spain consists of largely unassimilated regional powers from th middle ages which worked cooperatively (and today, autonomously) for the ide of the modern Spanish State. This only works if the idea of an overarching Spain prevails, and while it certainly was forced upon the population throug Monarchy and Fascism, today, the democratic experiment is producing uneven results that have nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with failed assimilation of languages and cultures.


    Spain's downfall is Hispanoamerica's: we lack juridical security and therefore nobody creates any business intended to last, because laws may change at any time and illegalize your business without prior notice. ONly excaptions are the people rich enough to buy politicians as usual. We are not at the Argentinian level but give us a decade and we will get there.

    Catalonia is an interesting case because the idea of a Catalonian identity has been mostly manufactured for political reasons. You often see this in other smaller regions, where a party rescues a forgotten language from the 8th century and some old customes, proclaims those to be the heritage of a given area, and starts trying to get people to join around those concepts and build a group which differentiates itself from the rest of the country. The main difference here is that Catalonian politicians have been successful unlike, say, Asturians or Leonens regionalist groups.

    I certainly would be more sympathetic towards Catalonians if they weren't defacto nazies. I am fine if a region wants to vote to leave - I am a firm believer that power must be atomized - but when the people needing the voting spends so much political time proclaiming the ethnical superiority of Catalonians over everybody else, it is hard to support that people.

    Catalonia is far from oppresed, come to think of it. They have more powers transfered to them than other Autonomies, they use the Catalonian language in the Administration nearly without restrictions, they operate their own TDL and they have their own police and tax force. Their representation in Congress is also much higher than their actual size grants. Nevertheless, they spend a considerable effort trying to convince foreigners that Spain is a big bad that rapes Catalonians and steals their stuff.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BORAXMAN on Friday, May 27, 2022 15:56:00
    "Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.

    Yes, that is explicit. Here, the "diverse" person could be more of a multi-generational American than the white person, but they are the one
    that makes it more diverse.

    I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

    I am not sure about down there but, here, I'd not count on it. ;)


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to THE DOCTOR on Friday, May 27, 2022 15:57:00
    --- DUMAS WALKER wrote --- > The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become > diverse.

    And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it
    is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

    Colonialism?

    That is certainly one, although I tend to think of that as being reserved
    for when a white government is sending settlers into a non-white area.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Friday, May 27, 2022 16:16:00
    I get the impression that some European immigrants were greeted poorly because they dressed and spoke differently, had funny sounding names, and some practices from the old country may have seemed alien or backward to Americans that were a generation or more separated from the old countries.

    The Irish were poorly treated in many areas, as were some Eastern Europeans
    and Italians.


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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to the doctor on Friday, May 27, 2022 17:43:49
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: the doctor to DUMAS WALKER on Fri May 27 2022 05:13 pm


    --- DUMAS WALKER wrote --- > The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become > diverse.

    And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

    Colonialism?

    that's different than just immigration.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Saturday, May 28, 2022 00:06:34
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Fri May 27 2022 04:16 pm

    I get the impression that some European immigrants were greeted poorly because they dressed and spoke differently, had funny sounding names, and some practices from the old country may have seemed alien or backward to Americans that were a generation or more separated from the old countries.

    The Irish were poorly treated in many areas, as were some Eastern Europeans and Italians.

    well from what i know about it, in my area in the midwest, there were a lot of wars going on between the various types of immigrants. there were actual ethnic gangs. i think on the east coast is there the irish were treated poorly.
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Saturday, May 28, 2022 05:25:14
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to boraxman on Fri May 27 2022 09:31 am

    non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) - then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rat (and this is controversial) but until your country generates 2,100 births fo every 1,000 women, it in effect cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born,

    The problem I have with that argument is that the Western countries taking immigrants from poor countries in a massive way and which have internal demographic crisis usually have a demographic crisis because they cannot cope with more population.

    Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we could not maintain our offspring in an environment considered acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.

    If you try to think of some business to start in Spain you soon realize that every need you could fullfil is already satisfied by an existing infrastructure. The unemployed to vacancies ratio is not favorable either. This translates in lots of mini-phenomena which occur in society and makes people not have more children, because Spaniards don't want to have children which will end up living in poverty.

    Meanwhile lots of South Americans tend to produce children first and wonder what to do with them later. I have had this conversation with Chilenans and Argentinians so I don't think this is a reckless affirmation. Spain has some pro-natality policies in place which attempt to cover the most common expenses in raising a child, but Chilenans seem to produce a kid, use the natality funds for their own purposes, and then raise their kid in a regime which Spaniards would consider unaceptable poverty (such as without using diapers or anything).

    Personally, if I loved Spanish culture I would be concerned because the meassures the government is taking for helping make more native Spaniards are being used for helping make more native outsiders. Put in that perspective, that *looks* like a replacement conspiracy. Keep in mind that for most nationalists, having the papers won't make you a Spaniard: having gazpacho and Holy Week parties and system of ethics which is reminiscent of Roman Law kind of does. Nationalists then don't recognize importing people whose idea of justice is hanging thieves in the square as a way of saving their culture... Importing talibans, for example, would make the Spanish Nation-State demographically sustainable but would not make Spanish culture sustainable.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Saturday, May 28, 2022 18:50:00
    Kaelon wrote to boraxman <=-

    But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, based upon a very specific American ideology.

    The fact that you even pose this question reflects that you view the
    world - and your country - in racially monolithic terms. If you are interested in advancing one race at the cost of another race, then
    simply embrace your racist or racialist identity, rather than bristling
    at the term. It is, simply put, nativist (at best) and racist (at
    worst) to state that immigration is a form of "social engineering,"
    when in fact, countries that endure immigration are complicit in the factors that led up to immigration being "forced" upon it.

    Now you are resorting to name-calling?? It was only a matter of time before you trotted out that old canard.

    If you want to halt immigration altogether (which seems to be what you
    are advocating here - you don't want a "melting pot," and you also
    don't want non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) -
    then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rate (and this is controversial) but until your
    country generates 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it in effect
    cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born, primarily, out of economic factors - not societal ones), and so, you should consider making it
    more economically appealing for men and women to procreate. Parental leave, social safety nets, childcare, and broader incentives for
    training and enabling populations are multi-generational investments.
    But as the Nordic countries will show, they can be successfully
    applied.

    OK, so we have one "excuse" for pushing open border and mass immigration. The reasoning here is utter BS. If the population does shrink, that is *our* problem. It doens't excuse replacement, and certainly does NOT give the government licence to, um, replace the children it thinks we should have had with others.

    Your agenda is pretty clear. You view immigration as a threat to the cultural identity of your country; there is certainly merit in
    discussing how countries that are incapable of building true melting
    pots are threatened by unassimilating populations (like France's
    muslims, or Germany's turkic populations). But Western European
    countries are generally complicit in the factors that led to the uptick
    in immigration to begin with: such as France's imperial ambitions in Africa leading to vast destabilization of the magreb and sub-saharan region, or Italy's brutal occupation of Ethiopia and interference in Lybia. Europeans haven't been willing to pay reparations to those countries, or invest in African development, and so you have a
    situation where entire populations are trapped in failing states that
    the Europeans raped and pillaged as recently as the 1960s.

    And this is the other "excuse"...

    These ALWAYS get trotted out. It is a very predicable move. The sad thing is, you think this justifies immoral actions. If you believe Europeans should pay reparations, then push for that. That is a seperate issue.

    I think you have a beef with your country's legislative policies, and
    so you should take it up in the political process. Some countries have effectively halted or redirected immigration (see: Austria and Hungary) only to discover massive shortfalls in talent, population, and/or tax-bases. White Europeans haven't generally taken the steps necessary
    to create monolithically racial states the way that the Asians
    culturally do, but again, I would point to the Nordic example, which emphasizes integration and assimilation but discourages immigration through raising birthrates of its own population.

    Except one can not do this because people like you will say that anyone who even THINKS this way is a, *gasp*, racist.

    In short, the argument goes like this
    - Because of reasons X, Y, Z, (it doens't matter, any reason will do), your country must open up its borders, become a melting pot, and if you aren't happy with a level of immigration which will make you a minority then you're just a racist.

    You didn't answer my question, which means there is no answer. With so called "anti-racists", there never, ever is an answer. I've been asking this for nearly 20 years and your responses are EXACTLY like all the other anti-racist ideologies. Because to answer the question is to admit that at some point, mass immigration must be scaled back. If you don't scale it back, replacement is the logical mathematical outcome.

    (note MASS immigration, not all immigration).

    The factuality of the birthrates in Western nations is not relevant. The issue is the MORAL problem of enacting and promoting and supporting policies which lead to the decline of an identifiable group. You've done everything possible to avoid this, from name calling, to trying to find "reasons" to not confront the issue, or simply arguing that I shouldn't care. If I were not White, you probably wouldn't have had such audacity to brush of real concerns like that.

    If you believe that identifiable ethnic groups can be degraded and displaced by policies, then just say you agree with it and such policies are justifiable.

    What is happening is the result of policies, of ideas, of what people are pushing. They must be held morally accountable for it.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Saturday, May 28, 2022 18:55:00
    Kaelon wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    @MSGID: <62910054.59783.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
    @REPLY: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on
    Thu May 26 2022 04:19 pm

    The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

    And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

    I would argue that there are very few White/Western countries that
    aren't facing demographic crisis that, unfortunately, makes them
    beholden to immigrants for all sorts of reasons (population
    replacement, chief among them, but so, too, are economic needs). The United States also has this problem with Central and Southern Americans
    -- in sharp contrast to the fully-assimilated Latin / Caribbean
    Americans -- because it relies upon Central and Southern Americans to serve as an economic under-class and labor force population.

    These demographic crises are caused by a lot of factors, but chief
    among them are the creation of imperial dependencies upon non-native populations for a variety of reasons. Conversely, White countries that never engaged in imperial ambitions and thus became dependent (economically or numerically) on non-White populations -- such as Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, and Norway -- aren't called racist for maintaining their white culture. They are just seen as not having been complicit in the factors that led to the collapse of their own
    demographic stability and the brutalization of foreign populations.

    '
    The Nordic countries would indeed be called racist for maintaining their culture. There is not a single White/European country which an "anti-racist" would find acceptable if they eschewed mass immigration in order to maintain their national character ethnically and culturally.

    Ask someone who is "against racism" to say which one, they won't. Believe me, I've asked countless of them over many, many years.

    Switch it to another peoples, a 'diverse' peoples, shall we say, and the attitude changes.

    By the way, the Arab world was imperialistic, as were the Mongols, and if you think that the first nations of Australia, America, or the peoples in Sub-Saharan Africa lived in peace and harmony, you have a skewed view of history. They didn't attain the same level of imperialism not because of their virtues, but lack of technical capacity to do so.

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Saturday, May 28, 2022 10:16:01
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri May 27 2022 01:17 pm

    Also I find accusing countries that take immigrants of being the cause of the flow of immigrants to be outright victim shaming. The Califato also raped and pillaged the folks of the area which today is Spain and Portugal but they didn't get a mass migration from Europe as a result.

    I think the Caliphate paid dearly for its expansion into Europe through countless Crusades, the Spanish occupation of Morocco, the British intervention in Egypt and Africa, and France's subjugation of the Mediterranean throughout the early 1800s. Turkey's eventual capitulation as Europe's "sick man" sort of finishes this cycle, but let us not pretend that there hasn't been population give-and-take borne from the imperial ambitions of European states.

    If Europe is genuinely interested in changing the story that it has with migrant populations, it should look inward at its own social and demographic policies:

    1. Improve demographic and economic conditions for its native population, to get to at least 2,100 births per 1,000 people. Most of the West is well below basic replacement figures, and is reliant upon immigration to meet basic population economic needs.

    2. Provide better integration and assimilation services: from language and skills training, to social welfare programming, and criminal justice reform to aggressively manage immigrant populations.

    3. Re-think its foreign aid policies to ensure that countries that it borders are stable and successful.

    The United States has a mixed record on all of these traits, as well, and for political (partisan) and economic reasons, it favors an unstable Central and South America but prefers a stable and successful Caribbean.
    _____
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Saturday, May 28, 2022 10:22:03
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri May 27 2022 01:37 pm

    I certainly would be more sympathetic towards Catalonians if they weren't defacto nazies. I am fine if a region wants to vote to leave - I am a firm believer that power must be atomized - but when the people needing the voting spends so much political time proclaiming the ethnical superiority of Catalonians over everybody else, it is hard to support that people.

    I don't necessarily agree that regions of Spain (or any country, for that matter) should be allowed to just "vote" to leave; elections are messy business, and they rarely actually reflect the overriding will of the population (see, for example, Brexit and even the Scottish Independence Referenda). However, I do think that if things are serious, people should be prepared to expend treasure -and- blood to achieve their stated political aims. I think it highly unlikely, if not impossible, that Catalonians will be interested in the business of secession to actually see it through. However, much like the Basques, they have legitimate economic grievances that can be addressed by Madrid to keep them engaged. Almost no one talks about Basque separatism now, because of how effectively Madrid intervened economically in el Pais Basco.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Saturday, May 28, 2022 10:28:07
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 05:25 am

    Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we could not maintain our offspring in an environment considered acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.

    If there were no economic opportunity for foreigners (i.e., Moroccans and other non-Spanish nationals), then there would not be a migrant crisis. It is clear that, whatever the Spanish standards permit, there is an under-belly economy that appeals to migrants, who conversely have nothing even remotely approaching that opportunity in their home countries. In the United States, our agricultural and services industries are highly reliant upon foreign immigrant labor, as is our technology and specialized talent sectors - similarly reliant upon foreign specialized labor - in order to meet the economic demands that we have. Europe, as a whole, is a beacon of untapped opportunity in the eyes of the suffering migrant populations.

    Spain could start to invest in technology, automation, and mass commercialization to make much of its territory inhabitable. Unlike much of the Continent, Spain has nearly two-thirds of its physical terrain untapped and undeveloped. It represents huge development opportunities for natural resources extraction, real estate, commercial and industrial development, just to name a few.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Saturday, May 28, 2022 10:39:48
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 06:50 pm

    Now you are resorting to name-calling?? It was only a matter of time before you trotted out that old canard.

    Firstly, it's not "name-calling" to accurately describe what you are openly describing - preferring people of one race to the people of another race, or creating policies that advance the primacy of one racial group at the expense of another - as a "racialist" or "racist" policy. I am not ascribing moral value to racism, but I think it's important to understand that, unless if you establish an autoarky in your economic system and effectively can close yourself off from the rest of the world, a racialist policy in how you manage your population has wide-ranging demographic and diplomatic implications.

    I will also say that to have a genuine discussion about the underlying social, economic, and political causes of immigration, one has to frankly understand and discuss the nuances of the policies and practices of the State that have led to the circumstance where it becomes anywhere from permissive of to reliant upon foreign populations in order to function.

    You seem to rant about foreign populations in your country - whatever the case may be - without acknowledging or being interested in discussing the factors and complicity of your own country and its people in creating the circumstances that led these foreign populations to your shores to begin with. You're trotting out nativist tropes like "we're being forced to open our borders" (by whom? why?). The truth is often times messier and far less convenient. You have foreigners in your country because your political and economic leaders need them. And things aren't changing because your view, frankly, is in the minority.

    I suggested a few basic tracks that could help change the nature of the conversation: improve the birth rate of your population, ensure that your neighbors are successful and prosperous states, and create a better regime of assimilation and integration in order to prevent foreign populations from effectively dilluting your national identity. But you don't seem interested in discussing the specifics here, and just want to villainize people for being in your country.

    I am 99.8% Caucasian, by the way, so I am not exactly advancing a non-White view here, given that I am White myself and generally privileged anywhere in the Western World. I am, however, acknowldging that a nativist and racialist perspective often does not appreciate a sense of accountability or ownership for the creation of the current circumstance. And in your country, there are policies and practices in place that require an under-class of foreigners to properly service your demographic and economic needs. Simply put.
    _____
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Saturday, May 28, 2022 10:45:52
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 06:55 pm

    By the way, the Arab world was imperialistic, as were the Mongols, and if you think that the first nations of Australia, America, or the peoples in Sub-Saharan Africa lived in peace and harmony, you have a skewed view of history. They didn't attain the same level of imperialism not because of their virtues, but lack of technical capacity to do so.

    All civilizations engage in imperialism as a natural part of their social, economic, and political expression. There are very few exceptions of inherently passive or pacifist populations (because most if not all of them were subjugated, assimilated, or annihilated). However, there is always cause-and-effect, and the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates paid dearly for their expansion across the world in the form of countless Crusades that ended their empires, and since the collapse of the Ottoman Hegemony in the 1600s, widespread subjugation, colonization, and global interference - from League of Nations mandates to modern day United Nations peacekeeping operations.

    Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance" (strongly recommended, if you haven't), you can appreciate that in order for new organizational stability to emerge, institutional predictability requires at least 2-3 generations to resolve outstanding political, economic, and social issues. Europe has another 10-25 years to contend with before these matters become clearer, and the European Union and its fate will factor largely in the emergence of a true Pan-European Identity, but so far, the picture looks mixed, at best.
    _____
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Saturday, May 28, 2022 14:54:00
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

    Dumas Walker wrote to BORAXMAN <=-

    @MSGID: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <628F5AB7.9038.dove-deb@pharcyde.org>
    The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

    And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

    "Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.

    I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

    I'd like to hear what they say/

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Saturday, May 28, 2022 21:22:57
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Sat May 28 2022 10:16 am

    2. Provide better integration and assimilation services: from language and skills training, to social welfare programming, and criminal justice reform aggressively manage immigrant populations.

    3. Re-think its foreign aid policies to ensure that countries that it border are stable and successful.

    The United States has a mixed record on all of these traits, as well, and fo political (partisan) and economic reasons, it favors an unstable Central and South America but prefers a stable and successful Caribbean.
    _____

    Results are a mixed bag as summarizer earlier. Not to mention that giving
    immigrants free training at the expense of the tax payer will automatically make the tax payer ask why should tax payers cover those expenses when the training of natives themsleves is so lackluster to begin with.

    The job of a Prime Minister is to defend the interests of his country's
    population, not to be the saviour of the world and solve the issues of their neighbors, *specially* if neighbors and regular collaborators are not trustworthy or outright backstabby. South American countries begging for rich countries to invest in infrastructure for them and then attempting to nationalize the infrastructure without offering compensation are a worn out trope already, for example.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Saturday, May 28, 2022 21:45:22
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Sat May 28 2022 10:22 am

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri May 27 2022 01:37 pm

    I certainly would be more sympathetic towards Catalonians if they weren't defacto nazies. I am fine if a region wants to vote to leave - I am a fir believer that power must be atomized - but when the people needing the voting spends so much political time proclaiming the ethnical superiority Catalonians over everybody else, it is hard to support that people.

    I don't necessarily agree that regions of Spain (or any country, for that matter) should be allowed to just "vote" to leave; elections are messy business, and they rarely actually reflect the overriding will of the population (see, for example, Brexit and even the Scottish Independence Referenda). However, I do think that if things are serious, people should b prepared to expend treasure -and- blood to achieve their stated political ai I think it highly unlikely, if not impossible, that Catalonians will be interested in the business of secession to actually see it through. However much like the Basques, they have legitimate economic grievances that can be addressed by Madrid to keep them engaged. Almost no one talks about Basque separatism now, because of how effectively Madrid intervened economically in Pais Basco.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-


    I think any group has the right to decide to leave any political asociation they don't feel comfortable being part of. This includes nations and states.

    I also think that Catalonian politicians don't want secession either since they are geting many benefits from being part of Spain. Specifically, their oversized representation in Congress grants that many national policies will require their cooperation, and as such they will put a price for their cooperation. This is a vast source of profit for Catalonian politicians.

    While I agree the National Government is sucking Basques and Catalonians dry via taxes, that is definetively a problem every Spaniard faces (and not just them). Since we are a Socialistic Democracy we tend to oppress certain people more than others based on how much money we may extract from them. I don't think they are facing more grievances than the ones fitting a Socialdemocrat regme.

    We don't talk much about Basque separatism anymore because Basques don't tend to prance arround describing themselves as a superior ethnic group. Also their region got heavily industrialized by Fascist policies back in the day so it is a bit hard for them to argue they are being raped by Spain when a lot of their industry was created with Statewide funds. The Catalonian situation is going down the drain very fast because Catalonian economy is tanking (mostly due to firms relocating out of Catalonia out of fear, increased ethnic crime and the like). They get the headlines because they are in crisis, they hold a lot of political power in national politics, and they are kind of desperate.

    Seriously, I have detected a lot of Catalonian refugees escaping to the province I live in because Catalonia is becoming unsustainable. Firms doing exports and imports often refuse to sign contracts if the wares go through Catalonian ports because they don't trust Catalonian authorities (and this I know from people in the field). Catalonians tend to blame the rest of Spain because firms prefer to export potatoes via Valentian ports but they don't blame themselves because they let their ports fall into the hand of institutionalized mafias, for example.

    It is easy for Catalonian politicians to blame others for their messes. I know because my own region has a regionalist/nationalist movement and the modus operandi is just the same. We have this tendency to create our own problems and scare our youth and investors away. Then we cry and blame some nearby province or Autonomy because they are conspiring and getting all our youngs and firms. What we never ever do is stop for a minute and wonder what are we doing so wrong that people needs to run away from here.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Saturday, May 28, 2022 21:54:11
    Re: Spain
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Sat May 28 2022 10:28 am

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 05:25 am

    Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we cou not maintain our offspring in an environment considered acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.

    If there were no economic opportunity for foreigners (i.e., Moroccans and ot non-Spanish nationals), then there would not be a migrant crisis. It is cle that, whatever the Spanish standards permit, there is an under-belly economy that appeals to migrants, who conversely have nothing even remotely approach that opportunity in their home countries. In the United States, our agricultural and services industries are highly reliant upon foreign immigra labor, as is our technology and specialized talent sectors - similarly relia upon foreign specialized labor - in order to meet the economic demands that have. Europe, as a whole, is a beacon of untapped opportunity in the eyes o the suffering migrant populations.

    Spain could start to invest in technology, automation, and mass commercialization to make much of its territory inhabitable. Unlike much of the Continent, Spain has nearly two-thirds of its physical terrain untapped undeveloped. It represents huge development opportunities for natural resources extraction, real estate, commercial and industrial development, ju to name a few.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-


    Most African immigration moves into Spain on their way somewhere else, actually.

    We also have many policies in place which benefit immigrants, such as the Minimal Vital Income (which is to say you get paid a salary thought to cover your minimum expenses for no reason other than existing). There is a lot of economic oportunity for immigrants but a whole lot of it is underground economy (immigration mafias and the like) or exploiting advantages provided by the administration.


    Regarding exploitation of natural resources, at this point it is nearly a formalized policy that we don't exploit our natural resources due to
    ecological concerns (ie. we don't open new mines or extract oil from new deposits because that is considered unecological)

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Saturday, May 28, 2022 22:02:10
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sat May 28 2022 10:45 am

    Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance" (strongly recommended, if yo haven't), you can appreciate that in order for new organizational stability emerge, institutional predictability requires at least 2-3 generations to resolve outstanding political, economic, and social issues. Europe has anot 10-25 years to contend with before these matters become clearer, and the European Union and its fate will factor largely in the emergence of a true Pan-European Identity, but so far, the picture looks mixed, at best.
    _____

    To be honest I don't know which consequences would those be.

    China has taken upon itself to turn a number of African countries into Chinesse protectorates anyway. My link to one of my providers is from Kennya and she outright says they lived better when they worked for the English. Kennya and a number of other countries is paying a lot of resources they don't have in
    order for the Chinesse to come in and build infrastructure for them. There are Chinnesse movies in which they acknowledge the fact and they portray themselves as saviors of poor people. It is not like they need anything from the Common Wealth now since it is obvious they have a new master.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Saturday, May 28, 2022 22:37:42
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sat May 28 2022 10:45 am

    Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions,

    Spaniards often deal with claims from foreigners that we screwed their countries and that their problems are our fault. It gets tiresome for a number of reasons.

    First of all, if a given region has belonged to a country for more than a century and then it splits out, they cease being of concern of the original country for good or bad. If they had three meals a day under Spanish domination and then they must resort to eating stones after leaving, claims that food scarcity is Pizarro's fault come across as cringeworthy.

    This is specially true with countries that separated more than one century ago. Even if it was true that the country that controlled them to begin with was The Big Bad and utterly destroyed the region, the failure to refloat their country after they walk away is theirs. Germany bounced back from being reduced to rubble _twice_ in a matter of decades just in the 20th Century. Spain bounced back after trying to self destruct with its Civil War in a matter of 50 years. Convincing people that your country is in the mud because it was an English or Spanish colony 100 or 150 years ago is a hard sell because countries are known to rebuild themselves in much less time.

    In the case of Spanish colonies it gets specially tricky because the usual claim is that Spaniards owe them reparation funds because our ancestors turned their regions into protectorates. The funny part is that _our_ ancestors stayed in mainland Spain. Meanwhile, Conquistadores got to South America and mixed with the natives, to the point the Conquistadores that supposedly raped South America are actually _their_ ancestors and not ours.

    Relatedly, something that always amazes me is how much hate Spaniards get from their ex-colonies, given that Spain was a relatively benevolent tyrant. There were bills of rights enacted to the rights of natives were recognized, Spaniards mixed with the local population instead of going Aparheid and enforcing racial and cultural separation. Meanwhile the English Empire ran slave rings, got natives in reserves, enforced cultural and ratioal segregation, and lots of their ex-colonies have cordial relations with the UK. What the Fucking Fuck.

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Saturday, May 28, 2022 22:05:06
    Re: Spain
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 09:54 pm

    Regarding exploitation of natural resources, at this point it is nearly a formalized policy that we don't exploit our natural resources due to ecological concerns (ie. we don't open new mines or extract oil from new deposits because that is considered unecological)

    Considering how little of Spain's natural resources have been properly developed, and how much of Spain's geography remains essentially unpopulated, this is a huge missed opportunity. I can understand ecological concerns moving to the forefront of an over-developed country, but a lot of Spain remains agrarian and, well, empty. And, further, the techniques that exist today are far more ecological than the techniques that existed in the 1970s and 1980s.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Sunday, May 29, 2022 16:39:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <62925E64.59799.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
    @REPLY: <6291E3FA.23209.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
    Sat May 28 2022 06:50 pm

    Now you are resorting to name-calling?? It was only a matter of time before you trotted out that old canard.

    Firstly, it's not "name-calling" to accurately describe what you are openly describing - preferring people of one race to the people of
    another race, or creating policies that advance the primacy of one
    racial group at the expense of another - as a "racialist" or "racist" policy. I am not ascribing moral value to racism, but I think it's important to understand that, unless if you establish an autoarky in
    your economic system and effectively can close yourself off from the
    rest of the world, a racialist policy in how you manage your population has wide-ranging demographic and diplomatic implications.

    I will also say that to have a genuine discussion about the underlying social, economic, and political causes of immigration, one has to
    frankly understand and discuss the nuances of the policies and
    practices of the State that have led to the circumstance where it
    becomes anywhere from permissive of to reliant upon foreign populations
    in order to function.

    You seem to rant about foreign populations in your country - whatever
    the case may be - without acknowledging or being interested in
    discussing the factors and complicity of your own country and its
    people in creating the circumstances that led these foreign populations
    to your shores to begin with. You're trotting out nativist tropes like "we're being forced to open our borders" (by whom? why?). The truth is often times messier and far less convenient. You have foreigners in
    your country because your political and economic leaders need them.
    And things aren't changing because your view, frankly, is in the
    minority.

    I suggested a few basic tracks that could help change the nature of the conversation: improve the birth rate of your population, ensure that
    your neighbors are successful and prosperous states, and create a
    better regime of assimilation and integration in order to prevent
    foreign populations from effectively dilluting your national identity.
    But you don't seem interested in discussing the specifics here, and
    just want to villainize people for being in your country.

    I am 99.8% Caucasian, by the way, so I am not exactly advancing a non-White view here, given that I am White myself and generally
    privileged anywhere in the Western World. I am, however, acknowldging that a nativist and racialist perspective often does not appreciate a sense of accountability or ownership for the creation of the current circumstance. And in your country, there are policies and practices in place that require an under-class of foreigners to properly service
    your demographic and economic needs. Simply put. _____

    The "preference" you are alluding to is common the world over. You are trying to pathologise it, by using loaded language such as "racialism" and the like. Your argument rests upon an assumption that humans either have no inbuilt preference, or that any preference they may have is wrong. The issue with this is that all peoples of the world, for the most part, there are exceptions, have an interest in their own culture, their own community, their own nation. That nation may not be the nation-state, but to suggest the Han Chinese, Jews, Punjabis, Kurds, Maoris, Australian Aboriginals have no higher motive or instinct to protect their own above others is just odd and flies in the face of what we observe. This is as absurd as suggesting that it is 'nepotistic' (or insert some other loaded smear-term) for me to be more concerned about my childrens future than some randon children in my suburb, let another another city, nation or continent.

    Calling such common, understandable and acknowledged preferences "racialist" or "racist" is an argumentative tactic used to pathologise, specifically for one people, that which is understood as normal elsewhere in order to support morally dubious ideologies.

    Secondly, the discussion about birtrate, colonialism, and the other issues that you brought up are worthy of nuanced discussion, but not now. The reason being is that while we may agree more than you realise on the analysis of these, it is *specifically* their use as justification for mass immigration. We know they are used as justifications for this, because they are always brought up, just as you decided to bring them up. They are standard "talking points". To change the nature of the conversation, as you desired, is to draw discussion away from the central point, which is whether it is morally problematic or not, to enact, support and by certain means, entrench policies and practicies which jeaopardize an identifable group.

    My view is simple. That is immoral. It is immoral to use this as a "solution" to a problem, whether it is the "race" problem, the "birthrate" problem or the "colonialism" problem.

    This is not about evading responsibility, it is about taking responsibility. The policies which, as you say, "require an under-class of foreigners to properly service your demographic and economic needs" are just as much a problem as any other. Such policies and practices are not ones I agree with. The need for the Capitalist machine to bring in a constant supply of labour is not something I support, nor do I support exploitation, or, as you allude to, some type of racial supremacy. Such practices always backfire, and yes, we DO bear responsibility, but we must face up to what we are doing.

    I don't think moaning about "colonialism" and the degradation of other nations while simultaneously arguing that it doesn't matter if they ARE degraded is useful.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Sunday, May 29, 2022 16:52:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <62925FD0.59800.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
    @REPLY: <6291E3FA.23210.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
    Sat May 28 2022 06:55 pm

    By the way, the Arab world was imperialistic, as were the Mongols, and if you think that the first nations of Australia, America, or the peoples in Sub-Saharan Africa lived in peace and harmony, you have a skewed view of history. They didn't attain the same level of imperialism not because of their virtues, but lack of technical capacity to do so.

    All civilizations engage in imperialism as a natural part of their
    social, economic, and political expression. There are very few
    exceptions of inherently passive or pacifist populations (because most
    if not all of them were subjugated, assimilated, or annihilated).
    However, there is always cause-and-effect, and the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates paid dearly for their expansion across the world in the form
    of countless Crusades that ended their empires, and since the collapse
    of the Ottoman Hegemony in the 1600s, widespread subjugation, colonization, and global interference - from League of Nations mandates
    to modern day United Nations peacekeeping operations.

    Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only
    effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance"
    (strongly recommended, if you haven't), you can appreciate that in
    order for new organizational stability to emerge, institutional predictability requires at least 2-3 generations to resolve outstanding political, economic, and social issues. Europe has another 10-25 years
    to contend with before these matters become clearer, and the European Union and its fate will factor largely in the emergence of a true Pan-European Identity, but so far, the picture looks mixed, at best.

    Agreed, and we are still yet to come to terms with the blowback. The ruling classes need for power, expansion and prestige in the long run seems zero sum. Thank you for the recommendation, and despite my objections against a system of one one free flow of people, that doesn't also come with a blindness to problems that "we" have created, and the follies and blowback from our own (speaking for the modern Wests here), misadventures and crimes. There are many on the right who want to shut down any recognition or reconciliation, which is not something I subscribe to. While I personally (and most others) are not personally guilty, we need to acknowledge the flaws in our own systems, which still exist to a large degree. We are STILL imperialistic and supremacist, still plundering the 'global south', but doing it in a different manner so we can pretend we are no longer racist or unenlightened.

    But, this reckoning should not come at a demographic costs. Such costs are permanent, long lasting and punitive on future generations, and unlike many who wax lyrical about a future "mixed" world, I think such fantasies are folly, and mostly deleterious. It is one thing to ask a people to rightfully compensate those who have been wronged, but I beleive, quite firmly, that the primary motives for demographic change are 1) exploitation of the population as "human capital" and 2) a desire for revenge, or "an eye for an eye".

    If addresssing the inequties of the past and present was done in a manner which did not post an existential threat to peoples, I think we'd get more consensus and understanding on the matter and make futher progress. As it is now, people are, rightfully, seeing those who want to address issues of colonialism, etc, as enemies, precisely because they position themselves as such.


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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Moondog on Sunday, May 29, 2022 16:53:00
    Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <62927001.39556.dove-deb@cavebbs.homeip.net>
    @REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
    Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

    Dumas Walker wrote to BORAXMAN <=-

    @MSGID: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <628F5AB7.9038.dove-deb@pharcyde.org>
    The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

    And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

    "Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.

    I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

    I'd like to hear what they say/

    I'll find a way to ask without threatening my job. Politically Correct types get very skeptical of people who deviate from mindless parroting of their propaganda. People who think are a threat. It is quite an oppressive environment.


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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Arelor on Sunday, May 29, 2022 17:01:00
    Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

    @MSGID: <6291F88A.6902.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
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    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to boraxman on
    Fri May 27 2022 09:31 am

    non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) - then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rat (and this is controversial) but until your country generates 2,100 births fo every 1,000 women, it in effect cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born,

    The problem I have with that argument is that the Western countries
    taking immigrants from poor countries in a massive way and which have internal demographic crisis usually have a demographic crisis because
    they cannot cope with more population.

    Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we could not maintain our offspring in an environment considered
    acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.

    If you try to think of some business to start in Spain you soon realize that every need you could fullfil is already satisfied by an existing infrastructure. The unemployed to vacancies ratio is not favorable
    either. This translates in lots of mini-phenomena which occur in
    society and makes people not have more children, because Spaniards
    don't want to have children which will end up living in poverty.

    The "dropping birthrates is a problem" is only a problem because of our current economic system. We could address this by economic means, more optimal distribution of wealth, better allocation of resource and labour. All these solutions are preferable to the vasty most disruptive and problem-ridden solution of mass migration. In short, these problems exist to maintain particular economic arrangements for a few.

    In Australia, we dramatically ramped up immigration in the early 2000s. It was a significant increase, but there was no corresponding 'boom'. Infrastricture became stretched, we started running out of space, hospital beds, etc. House prices started to rise (though for other reasons too). Wages have been stagnant, the cost of living increasing relative to them. Companies became lazy with hiring because there was always a steady stream of brown people to man the factory floor.

    The 'low birthrate' scare was just that, demographers extrapolating figures in the 80s and 90s and predicting doom, as experts always do.

    Australia shut off immigration during the pandemic, and despite the cries of doom and gloom should we lower it from pundits, we kept on going. We now know that this argument that we need to maintain 200K+ people coming in a year to survive is bluff.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Boraxman on Sunday, May 29, 2022 12:10:51
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

    I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

    At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Sunday, May 29, 2022 16:56:12
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Sun May 29 2022 12:10 pm

    was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.


    i don't think that's a law, it's probably a rule their leadership came up with. It's flat out racist.

    I can't tollerate racism in the workplace. it's bad for everyone.
    I worked at a place that was like a 1950's timewarp and had many issues with racism.

    They were even sued for it and I got in trouble for complaining about them not hiring good people of color in certain departments. Their solution would be to get a handful of unworthy blacks and give them a push into a high paying office job. That's even more stupid and racist.
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Sunday, May 29, 2022 18:00:17
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sun May 29 2022 04:39 pm

    Calling such common, understandable and acknowledged preferences "racialist" or "racist" is an argumentative tactic used to pathologise, specifically for one people, that which is understood as normal elsewhere in order to support morally dubious ideologies.

    I'm hardly being argumentative to correctly define the term that you are using to describe your preference. You wish to prioritize one race over another (namely, "White" people, as you have identified them). That is the very definition of racialist politics: the prioritization of one race over the others. Do not blame me for making it pathological - blame the Third Reich for taking racialism to the extreme by murdering over 6 million Jews all in the interests of their "pure" Aryan race. It's unfortunate that racial preferences, when they prioritize the numerically dominant race at the expense of the minority, cannot be discussed in nuance; it is a slippery slope that other countries have demonstrated lead to genocide. And there have been countless examples since Nazi Germany - from the Khmer Rouge to Serbian Nationalists. It is a cornerstone of hate, and the first step towards holocaust. Perhaps this is why diversity policies cannot realistically be dissented against; there is no example of a scenario where this dissent does not ultimately turn violent.

    Secondly, the discussion about birtrate, colonialism, and the other issues that you brought up are worthy of nuanced discussion, but not now. The reason being is that while we may agree more than you realise on the analysis of these, it is *specifically* their use as justification for mass immigration. We know they are used as justifications for this, because they are always brought up, just as you decided to bring them up. They are standard "talking points". To change the nature of the conversation, as you desired, is to draw discussion away from the central point, which is whether it is morally problematic or not, to enact, support and by certain means, entrench policies and practicies which jeaopardize an identifable group.

    Why not now? I think you follow up precisely with why it's better to discuss social, political, and economic causes that have led to a general zero-tolerance in the West towards racialist policies. I don't think it's changing the nature of the conversation: it is the very conversation that needs to be had. What led Australia to institute its policies of multiculturalism and diversity? Clearly, there were social, political, and economic ones that led to this consensus. To instead blame "outsiders" for this, or suggest there is some sort of "Great Replacement" conspiracy - which, again, has been widely disproven by every serious demographer and sociologist - is refusing to take responsibility for the problems that your society is contending with.

    My view is simple. That is immoral. It is immoral to use this as a "solution" to a problem, whether it is the "race" problem, the "birthrate" problem or the "colonialism" problem.

    I have suggested various ways to address your demographic and economic failures without moving towards immigration. You do not want to discuss them, and instead just want to blame non-Whites (somehow?), when it's clearly an inherent quality of Western Civilization to embrace divergent viewpoints, diverse perspectives, and seek out to assimilate talent and skills outside of their own borders.

    Considering Australia's origin story as the ultimate British Penal Colony for people deemed by the British Crown to be "deviant" and unacceptable to the Anglo-Saxon norm - whether the criminal justice system, or simply socio-economic undesirables - it is disappointing that you do not embrace your country's origin story more patriotically.

    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Sunday, May 29, 2022 18:11:35
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sun May 29 2022 04:52 pm

    Agreed, and we are still yet to come to terms with the blowback. The ruling classes need for power, expansion and prestige in the long run seems zero sum. Thank you for the recommendation, and despite my objections against a system of one one free flow of people, that doesn't also come with a blindness to problems that "we" have created, and the follies and blowback from our own (speaking for the modern Wests here), misadventures and crimes. There are many on the right who want to shut down any recognition or reconciliation, which is not something I subscribe to. While I personally (and most others) are not personally guilty, we need to acknowledge the flaws in our own systems, which still exist to a large degree. We are STILL imperialistic and supremacist, still plundering the 'global south', but doing it in a different manner so we can pretend we are no longer racist or unenlightened.

    I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.

    But, this reckoning should not come at a demographic costs. Such costs are permanent, long lasting and punitive on future generations, and unlike many who wax lyrical about a future "mixed" world, I think such fantasies are folly, and mostly deleterious. It is one thing to ask a people to rightfully compensate those who have been wronged, but I beleive, quite firmly, that the primary motives for demographic change are 1) exploitation of the population as "human capital" and 2) a desire for revenge, or "an eye for an eye".

    I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries, as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints, other than to be the pawns of greater powers.

    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Nightfox on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 07:22:00
    Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
    Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

    I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

    At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the
    company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO
    mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it
    was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give
    a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The
    CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that
    if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

    Nightfox

    I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.


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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Monday, May 30, 2022 21:45:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Calling such common, understandable and acknowledged preferences "racialist" or "racist" is an argumentative tactic used to pathologise, specifically for one people, that which is understood as normal elsewhere in order to support morally dubious ideologies.

    I'm hardly being argumentative to correctly define the term that you
    are using to describe your preference. You wish to prioritize one race over another (namely, "White" people, as you have identified them).
    That is the very definition of racialist politics: the prioritization
    of one race over the others. Do not blame me for making it pathological
    - blame the Third Reich for taking racialism to the extreme by
    murdering over 6 million Jews all in the interests of their "pure"
    Aryan race. It's unfortunate that racial preferences, when they
    prioritize the numerically dominant race at the expense of the
    minority, cannot be discussed in nuance; it is a slippery slope that
    other countries have demonstrated lead to genocide. And there have
    been countless examples since Nazi Germany - from the Khmer Rouge to Serbian Nationalists. It is a cornerstone of hate, and the first step towards holocaust. Perhaps this is why diversity policies cannot realistically be dissented against; there is no example of a scenario where this dissent does not ultimately turn violent.

    You keep assuming that the current status quo, government policy to allow large scale immigration, is the 'natural' position and that somehow it is me which is enacting a policy.

    Europe isn't European because they kicked all the Africans and Asians out. You have things backwards here. The move towards "diversity" is the policy, not the other way around.

    You keep trying to deny there is policy, when clearly, immigration policy, as well as the ideological push towards "diversity" and the "melting pot" is cleary a deliberate goal.

    You don't get to push for a goal, then claim that those who say your goals are destructive are the ones with wacky ideas. You need to at least disprove those claims. You sound like a Climate Change denier, trying to argue that people who believe it is happening have fallen into a conspiracy. It is happening because it is observed to be happening.

    In the 50s to the 70's there was a great liberalising of immigration policy. The fact that people talk about it, and what it would do means people were aware of what they were doing.

    Claiming that opposing a program of mass immigration would lead to a "holocaust" is absolutely laughable. You do realise that the countries which fought AGAINST the Nazi's had restrictive immigration policies? Australia literally had a White Australia policy, and we fought AGAINST Nazism. Would you be aware that I had a relative from Southern Europe who happened to live in Germany during the war, and found them even more tolerant of her than Australians?

    So try again. South Korea is Korean because they didn't open their borders, not because they turned into Nazis.


    Why not now? I think you follow up precisely with why it's better to discuss social, political, and economic causes that have led to a
    general zero-tolerance in the West towards racialist policies. I don't think it's changing the nature of the conversation: it is the very conversation that needs to be had. What led Australia to institute its policies of multiculturalism and diversity? Clearly, there were
    social, political, and economic ones that led to this consensus. To instead blame "outsiders" for this, or suggest there is some sort of "Great Replacement" conspiracy - which, again, has been widely
    disproven by every serious demographer and sociologist - is refusing to take responsibility for the problems that your society is contending
    with.

    No, the "zero-tolerance" in the West is due to ideology. It was a narrative constructed by people who had a vision of society, who pathologised what was normal and equated any criticism of their policies or goals as Nazism.

    It's a cheap tactic that sadly worked. I never blamed "outsiders" and I said the "Great Replacement" is based on observation of demographic changes, which people admit and gloat about, but dissapears the moment it needs to for arguments sage.

    Are these changes occuring, or not? And if they are occuring, at what point do we get to say "Stop, we have enough diversity". You need to answer these questions.

    At what point to Britons get to scale back immigration?


    I have suggested various ways to address your demographic and economic failures without moving towards immigration. You do not want to
    discuss them, and instead just want to blame non-Whites (somehow?),
    when it's clearly an inherent quality of Western Civilization to
    embrace divergent viewpoints, diverse perspectives, and seek out to assimilate talent and skills outside of their own borders.

    Considering Australia's origin story as the ultimate British Penal
    Colony for people deemed by the British Crown to be "deviant" and unacceptable to the Anglo-Saxon norm - whether the criminal justice system, or simply socio-economic undesirables - it is disappointing
    that you do not embrace your country's origin story more patriotically.

    If you cannot accept as legitimate a desire for self-preservation, or to consider this view valid, then there is no room for discussion. You cannot discuss concerns with someone who considers those concerns evil. They may be wrong, but you haven't demonstrated that at all

    At what point to the British, or French, get to scale back immigration and not get called racist for it??



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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Monday, May 30, 2022 21:51:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very
    "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right
    are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire
    to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such
    as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the
    inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting
    some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.

    This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

    I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for
    demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a
    la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries,
    as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The
    Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not
    been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to
    sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark,
    have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints,
    other than to be the pawns of greater powers.

    The Third Reich would never have triumphed long term because it was based on a Great Man (figuratively speaking) and had an unsustainable ideology.

    The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would find yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking against the regime, than if you were married to a black person.

    The narrative that the war/fight was about racism is a post-hoc rationalise by the West to justify demographic changes by leadership. No one back then was stupid enough to conflate the Nazi's specific racial ideas with restricted immigration. That confusion, which you are spreading, came later.

    At what point do the British or French get to say that immigration should be curtailed? When they are less then 50%, 40%, 30%?

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Monday, May 30, 2022 08:52:15
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:45 pm

    You keep trying to deny there is policy, when clearly, immigration policy, as well as the ideological push towards "diversity" and the "melting pot" is cleary a deliberate goal.

    I disagree that this is the goal. You ascribe racialist intent to a demographic policy, because you see the world in racial terms. I see the world in geopolitical terms, and as I describe elsewhere and here, the policies we have for immigration are numerical in origin: they are economic and they are demographic. If there were enough White immigrants, for example, willing to accept the economic and demographic circumstances of immigrating to France or Britain, I assure you, they would be taken.

    "Diversity," as a sociopolitical argument, is a way of managing the outcomes of the goal. It's really simple: this is all about numbers. The largest (i.e., most populous and geographically expansive / resource rich) nation-states are the most prosperous and powerful on the planet. Conversely, nation-states with shrinking populations or with ecologically or geographically challenged circumstances, are looking at a certain geopolitical destiny as a second-rate (if not subjugated) power.

    That's the goal here.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Monday, May 30, 2022 08:56:32
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

    This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

    I think the process is largely unstoppable, not without a real replacement to the solution to the problem - which I have argued repeatedly is demographic in origin. If Britain were to surpass 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it would no longer be in demographic crisis within one generation. China and Korea can impose immigration restrictions because it has a demographic crisis in the other direction -- too many people, not enough resources to maintain them.

    The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would find yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking against the regime, than if you were married to a black person.

    This is a new tangent, and I am happy to debate it, but there is vast evidence that shows that the policy of the Third Reich - beyond what it publicly espoused in documentation - was racialist in origin. Every decision made during the Second World War, from electing not to complete Operation Sea Lion against the British, turn its attention to Russia and the expansive East, or to divert critical manufacturing resources to hasten the shipping of Jews to the concentration camps in the final year of the war, were all premised upon the real aim - what Himmler would later state "even if we lose, future generations will laud us for our achievement" - which was to depopulate the continent of non-Aryans.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Monday, May 30, 2022 10:50:38
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sun May 29 2022 06:00 pm

    I'm hardly being argumentative to correctly define the term that you are usi to describe your preference. You wish to prioritize one race over another (namely, "White" people, as you have identified them). That is the very definition of racialist politics: the prioritization of one race over the others. Do not blame me for making it pathological - blame the Third Reich f taking racialism to the extreme by murdering over 6 million Jews all in the interests of their "pure" Aryan race. It's unfortunate that racial preferenc when they prioritize the numerically dominant race at the expense of the minority, cannot be discussed in nuance; it is a slippery slope that other countries have demonstrated lead to genocide. And there have been countless examples since Nazi Germany - from the Khmer Rouge to Serbian Nationalists. is a cornerstone of hate, and the first step towards holocaust. Perhaps thi is why diversity policies cannot realistically be dissented against; there i no example of a scenario where this dissent does not ultimately turn violent


    I think boraxman has not suggested to priorize or discriminate on a racial basis. The above is fine and all but I don't see how it is related.

    If the discourse was "We have so many gypsies in Spain and we must get rid of them" then I would buy the argument, but it clearly is not.

    IN particular, Boraxman's discourse is "Evil powers fom the government are importing foreigner workers because it fits their agenda better than employing people who is already in Australia, and that is bonkers."

    The fact you are arguing that "white" countries have to actively import foreigners from non-white backgrounds and then offer training to them for free is equally racist, according to your logic, because you are de-priorizing white natives.


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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Monday, May 30, 2022 10:42:34
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 10:50 am

    The fact you are arguing that "white" countries have to actively import foreigners from non-white backgrounds and then offer training to them for free is equally racist, according to your logic, because you are de-priorizing white natives.

    That's hilarious, considering I'm not advocating any such policy. I am simply articulating that the problem is not a racial or cultural one; it is purely a demographic one, and its principal cause is the low birth rate among native (i.e., non-immigrant) populations in Western countries. There are many causes behind the declining birth-rate in these countries - chief among them, the higher standards of living, the urbanization of the population, and a heavily industrialized economic system - but nowhere can it be stated that foreigners themselves are the cause of native populations not procreating to sufficient numbers to even just replace themselves (at a rate of at least 2,100 births for every 1,000 women).

    It is politically unpalatable in these countries for governments to actually undertake the type of population control that is otherwise possible in non-Western countries (such as China, a country that Boraxman has cited repeatedly). Natives in Western Countries -- especially women -- are defiant and resistant to the genomic prerogative to procreate and extend legacies, because of the adverse impact that more children cause to native population economic well-being. This is largely an economic factor, because in an agrarian society, more children necessarily also meant more revenues for the pastoral household. In an urbanized economy, more children invariably mean more expenses.

    There are largely cultural efforts under way in the United States to contend with the declining non-immigrant birth-rate (mostly through the use of religiously-charged reversal of abortion rights), though these efforts will largely backfire because native populations generally have access to birth control measures that will keep their birth rates well below the 2,100 births per 1,000 women minimum to maintain populations. It is the primarily non-native and native lower-economic segments of society that will suffer under these policies, creating more people in those segments. Ironically, banning abortion or restricting birth control will drive up the rate at which non-natives will procreate, further diminishing the native population count and further making it inevitable for the non-native population to out-populate the natives.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Monday, May 30, 2022 15:15:23
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 10:42 am

    The fact you are arguing that "white" countries have to actively import foreigners from non-white backgrounds and then offer training to them for free is equally racist, according to your logic, because you are de-priorizing white natives.

    That's hilarious, considering I'm not advocating any such policy. I am simp

    You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.

    If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.

    Just in case it is not clear, my general position on this issue is that I am not against immigration per-se but I am against incentivicing it.

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Monday, May 30, 2022 13:47:13
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 03:15 pm

    You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.

    If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.

    My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable given the demographic failure of most Western states. If a Western state wishes to avoid the subsequent political failure that often follows demographic failure (including, a collapse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and potentially even military confrontation from larger and more competitive/populous nations), it must confront its demographic failure. Immigration, as it stands, is seen by most democratic governments as the most palatable approach to managing this problem. It is, by no means, the only approach - and, if you live in an authoritarian society, many more options appear on your menu from which governments can select.

    If you must import people for demographic purposes - replenishing your decreasing population, maintaining competitiveness in the open marketplace, or even just sustaining the native population through the service economic sector - then, governments should be integrating and assimilating these populations. Otherwise, they will create significant social and political strife, which eventually defeats whatever perceived economic benefits one may derive from them. In the world today, the United States has the highest success rate at integrating and assimilating these populations, but it certainly does not stand alone.
    _____
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Monday, May 30, 2022 17:16:27
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am


    I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.


    in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is arrested and they are white: you get a photo. you get them mentioned as being white several times.

    if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.

    i come from a diverse background and half my family is black and my family are immigrants. so fuck people telling me how to talk.
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Monday, May 30, 2022 17:37:15
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 01:47 pm

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 03:15 pm

    You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.

    If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.

    My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi the demographic failure of most Western states. If a Western state wishes t avoid the subsequent political failure that often follows demographic failur (including, a collapse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and potentially even military confrontation from larger and mor competitive/populous nations), it must confront its demographic failure. Immigration, as it stands, is seen by most democratic governments as the mos palatable approach to managing this problem. It is, by no means, the only approach - and, if you live in an authoritarian society, many more options appear on your menu from which governments can select.

    If you must import people for demographic purposes - replenishing your decreasing population, maintaining competitiveness in the open marketplace, even just sustaining the native population through the service economic sect - then, governments should be integrating and assimilating these populations Otherwise, they will create significant social and political strife, which eventually defeats whatever perceived economic benefits one may derive from them. In the world today, the United States has the highest success rate at integrating and assimilating these populations, but it certainly does not st alone.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-


    I think you give governments too much credit if you think they have long term plans to face demographic crisis. My experience is politicians only attempt to solve issues that will apply over their mandate. IMO they are using the demographic crisis as the good sounding excuse for rolling out incentive programs to further their actual political goals (such as shipping foreigners to certain areas or manipulating public opinion).

    Also the US is starting to look like a bad example to use since it was literally burning due to unsolved ethnocultural conflicts in what seems three days ago.

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Monday, May 30, 2022 16:08:52
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 05:37 pm

    I think you give governments too much credit if you think they have long term plans to face demographic crisis. My experience is politicians only attempt to solve issues that will apply over their mandate. IMO they are using the demographic crisis as the good sounding excuse for rolling out incentive programs to further their actual political goals (such as shipping foreigners to certain areas or manipulating public opinion).

    I think democratic governments are absolutely short-sighted, but do not underestimate how countries are limited by the options presented to them based upon geopolitical realities. Yes, politicians in democracies are mostly interested in re-election, but most democratic states are, practically speaking, coalitions of oligarchies (especially plutocratic ones) which are interested in one thing above all else: continued growth. Geopolitics will drive decision-making and thinking around policies, though politics will often times resemble something very different (especially on cultural issues).

    Also the US is starting to look like a bad example to use since it was literally burning due to unsolved ethnocultural conflicts in what seems three days ago.

    I think we are in a global period of re-examining democracy as a valid form of government, and if you believe President Xi of China, authoritarian regimes threaten the deliberative, consensus-generating world order with a potentially faster, more agile form of governance. Nevertheless, societal ills can generally only be addressed through deliberation and compromise - factors that authoritarian regimes cannot contend with.

    The United States, despite the January 6th Insurrection (wholly manufactured by President Trump and his supporters), and the many social challenges stemming from cultural, racial, and economic tensions (which have endured since our Founding, with episodes from the Civil War to Martin Luther King to Rodney King and now the Black Lives Matter movements), is still a suitable example for several reasons:

    1. Despite our divisions and countless contradictions, the United States leverages its economic and political structures to ruthless and devastating effect in order to dominate the competitive landscape for science, technology, defense, and even healthcare.

    2. While there is vast inequality in earning power, and the gap between the rich and the poor is reaching another apex similar to the Gilded Age of the 1880s-1920s, the United States is effective at delivering the largest national economy, which it achieves through a patrimonial federal subsidy of all of its critical industries.

    3. While there are significant demographic challenges in the United States (with our native birth rates anywhere between 1,700 per 1,000 women to 2,080 per 1,000 women), our permissive immigration system allows our legalized (and visible) population to grow substantially, year-over-year, ensuring we continue to expand our population while concurrently leveraging our institutions and economic systems to attract the brightest talent from throughout the world.

    Again, the United States is not alone in its ability to democratically manage its demographic challenges through a variety of tools, while still maintaining social stability in ways that outperform other Western Countries. Britain, Canada, and Australia have achieved similar breakthroughs, with similar socioeconomic and ethnocultural challenges with which they must contend. But these challenges - and the social tensions that they cause - are well worth the benefits that increasing your population and maintaining a competitive edge in the global world order.

    I think that as the democracy vs. autocracy ideological debate rages on throughout the world (which is primarily a United States vs. China conflict, with Russia being a useful pawn in this exercise given the Ukraine War), you will see increasing instability in authoritarian governments that lack the means to contend with the social and economic strife that the unilateral "agility" of hierarchical decision-making affords/costs them. You are already seeing the general breakdown of public order, of economic stability, and of general institutional solvency in China due to the "Zero Covid" mandate, for example, which is largely representative of many of Xi's domestic failures stemming from - again - inability to successfully mediate the social, economic, and cultural tensions that run deep within modern Chinese society. Much as the United States has twelve distinct native culture (See: "The American Nations," for a good primer on our immigration / settlre genesis), China has at least five distinct native populations that - unlike in the United States' case - are deeply and violently opposed to one another.

    It will lead to a violent and brutal reckoning for China, eventually. I hope that by the time it does, China has a democratic framework with which to mediate the social and ethnocultural divisions. Otherwise, a Civil War is inevitable.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Monday, May 30, 2022 18:13:40
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 01:47 pm

    My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi the demographic failure of most Western states. If a Western state wishes t avoid the subsequent political failure that often follows demographic failur (including, a collapse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and potentially even military confrontation from larger and mor competitive/populous nations), it must confront its demographic failure. Immigration, as it stands, is seen by most democratic governments as the mos palatable approach to managing this problem. It is, by no means, the only approach - and, if you live in an authoritarian society, many more options appear on your menu from which governments can select.

    Besides, as mentioned earlier, if you import people with a culture different enough from yours as a solution, your own culture will be extinguished nevertheless unless you assimilate the incomers. Notice I didn't say "integrate". I said "assimilate". This is the core reason why your average nationalist does not buy immigration as a solution.

    Some people underestimates greatly how expansive certain cultures are and how defensive their members are regarding those cultures. This is probably because Westerns seem to think the usual Western traditions (based on religion, pagan customes from ages past and whatever have you) are lame and that people from other cultures have the same appreciation for their own culture as Westerns do for theirs. This is kind of dangerous because a single person pushing a cultural agenda is cute but four thousand are a political entity. The Opus Dei is harmless because there are so few of them: if they were 40% of the population chances are you'd live under a Christian Theocracy.

    I faced the most utter ridicule recently when I watched an Interview at some representative of a neiughbourhood asociation in Barcelona, regarding Mena gang activity. Barcelona has one of the most progressive autonomic governments in Spain right now. This guy said that the neighbourhood was all inclusive, welcoming and anti-racist, that they loved Moroccans... but that they needed to get the fuck out because the situation was unsustainable and they needed to be placed somewhere where they could be helped.

    And this is the problem: a typical Nationalist sees this and thinks that, if one of the autonomic governments who tries the hardest to integrate outsiders is facing this issue, then mass integration tactics are a failure at best and
    a scam at worst.

    Actually, I think those types have a point, when it comes to certain types of culture. Proponents of mass immigration actually claim they can import massive ammounts of people from countries in which, if you walk around with your 16 years old daughter, you will receive purchase offer for her, and that they can integrate such worldwiew in the core of the Western world in a conflict-free way. My grandparents spent a big chunk of their lives in Africa and they were skepticks towards this idea.

    Random thought: why are the pro-feminist parties the ones who are fine
    giving incentives to religions and cultures which historically treat women like garbage?



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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Monday, May 30, 2022 17:27:44
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 06:13 pm

    Besides, as mentioned earlier, if you import people with a culture different enough from yours as a solution, your own culture will be extinguished nevertheless unless you assimilate the incomers. Notice I didn't say "integrate". I said "assimilate". This is the core reason why your average nationalist does not buy immigration as a solution.

    Completely agree. For me, and many who genuinely understand and appreciate the concept of the true "melting pot" (and, aside from the United States and a select handful of other countries, I haven't seen this done particularly well), assimilation is key. This means the extinguishing of the discernable cultural traits that are alienating and exclusionary, and the selective alignment of beneficial traits of that culture into the overarching emergent super-culture into which they are folded. So, to continue in the prior examples I've given, in the United States, Irish-Americans are not Irish - they are Americans from an Irish descendancy. Cuban-Americans are not Cuban - they are Americans from a Cuban origination. There is pride in the traditions and upbringing, but an eagerness to discard those that made Irish and Cubans "separate", and instead a primary on the American-ness given their assimilation. And we're talking two very differet periods of assimilation (the 1920s vs. the 1960s).

    Some people underestimates greatly how expansive certain cultures are and how defensive their members are regarding those cultures. This is probably because Westerns seem to think the usual Western traditions (based on religion, pagan customes from ages past and whatever have you) are lame and that people from other cultures have the same appreciation for their own culture as Westerns do for theirs. This is kind of dangerous because a single person pushing a cultural agenda is cute but four thousand are a political entity. The Opus Dei is harmless because there are so few of them: if they were 40% of the population chances are you'd live under a Christian Theocracy.

    Once again, we agree. The difficulty with some Western countries' naivete with the dificulty in assimilation is that they are eager to subordinate the parent culture into the new culture being assimilated. That's not how this works, and yet, there is a deep civic deficit in those countries with their origins, their national character, and the history of their civilization so as to provoke pride and appreciation in what makes that culture unique and distinct.

    To channel Star Trek's Borg - assimilated cultures must add their ethnic and biological distinctiveness to the assimilating super-culture. If done properly, that uniqueness becomes forever a part of the parent culture into which they are being assimilated, and the traits that would otherwise call for separation are completely jettisoned. The distinctive traits that make the assimilated culture unique are added to the distinctivness and uniqueness of the new parent culture. So, when Cubans assimilated into American society through Cuban-American melting-pot behavior, our humor, our cuisine, our history, and our Hispano-Iberian Caucasian roots became a new part of the emerging American super-culture. Cubans are as American as any other group, but far more so than any culture that hasn't properly assimilated or has resisted assimilation.

    In France, segregation and isolation of cultures inherently is abherrant to assimilation and resists this melting pot with instead a preference for fictitious integration.
    _____
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  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 00:25:03
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Mon May 30 2022 05:16 pm

    in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is arrested and they are white: you get a photo. you get them mentioned as being white several times.

    if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.


    Less than 100 miles north of you, it's the opposite.

    DaiTengu

    ... Dead people are cool

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 03:18:38
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 12:25 am

    if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.


    Less than 100 miles north of you, it's the opposite.

    DaiTengu

    In milwaukee there is a huge problem with black on black crime.

    I saw a video of the police chief dancing around with people at some
    take back the hood event. Meanwhile black people are killed every day and it gets ignored. it's really sad.

    here's some info on our areas:

    Appleton Demographics
    White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

    Milwaukee Demographics
    White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%

    Whats strange is when i'm out I see mostly black people no matter where I go.
    i guess it's because of segregation. The whites are just in certain areas of the county

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  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 07:32:52
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

    here's some info on our areas:

    Appleton Demographics
    White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

    Milwaukee Demographics
    White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%


    Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lot better, there's still a lot of racism here.

    Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that said black people were not welcome north of there. I'm guessing that would have been in the 1940s or so.

    DaiTengu

    ... There's little worse than being peerless in a peer-review system.

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  • From Andre@VERT/RDOMENTR to MRO on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 07:51:02
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

    Milwaukee Demographics
    White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%

    lolno.

    The metro area is like 65% white and 15% black.


    - Andre

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 09:10:52
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 07:32 am

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

    here's some info on our areas:

    Appleton Demographics
    White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

    Milwaukee Demographics
    White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%


    Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lot better, there's still a lot of racism here.

    Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that said black people were not welcome north of there. I'm guessing that would have been in the 1940s or so.


    wow that's crazy.

    it certainly still has a reputation for being lilly white.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 11:29:00
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

    Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
    Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

    I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" bei European, but not Anglo.

    At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

    Nightfox

    I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples li on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.


    It is done because it looks favorable on paper to the community and the government.

    Several years ago a local radio station was mentioned on the news because it fell within the lower percentile of radio stations in it's progamming format with regards to hiring minorities and overall diversity of employees.

    In defense of theirselves, the radio station manager pointet out they had
    been under a hiring freeze for that year, so any new employee would be a
    direct replacement of another, and no one left the company that year. They also pulled the job application forms for the last five years, and no one considered as a minority had applied. It was at the time a stand alone statio n with one tower and a small building next to it. My guess is 10-15
    employees. Album oriented rock, and other than DJ's babysitting an automated system, they had two guys in the morning telling jokes and reading traffic reports and sometimes an afternoon guy that will air calls. The morning guys and afternoon guys were replaced by syndicated radio shows. All the rest
    were engineers, admin, or sales folk. They had historically hired all their talen from the local college, so that also narrowed down their choices as to who applied to their communications programs.

    They got off the list bottom eventually. They were bought up by a larger broadcast company that kept the transmitter but closed down the office.
    They moved everyone into a larger building with all their other affiliates
    and laid off whoever they no longer needed. The station format is talk
    radio, and nearly every show is syndicated.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 11:43:00
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.

    This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

    I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries, as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints, other than to be the pawns of greater powers.

    The Third Reich would never have triumphed long term because it was based on Great Man (figuratively speaking) and had an unsustainable ideology.

    The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would fi yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking again the regime, than if you were married to a black person.

    The narrative that the war/fight was about racism is a post-hoc rationalise the West to justify demographic changes by leadership. No one back then was stupid enough to conflate the Nazi's specific racial ideas with restricted immigration. That confusion, which you are spreading, came later.

    At what point do the British or French get to say that immigration should be curtailed? When they are less then 50%, 40%, 30%?


    The "big lie" the Reich was built upon was based on blaming the nation's problems on minority groups with obvious or strong presence. Conspiracy that external ethnic and religious groups were there to contaminate their culture and destroy the nation from the inside.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Kaelon on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 11:58:00
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 01:47 pm

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 03:15 pm

    You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.

    If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.

    My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi apse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and pote cratic governments as the most palatable approach to managing this problem.

    If you must import people for demographic purposes - replenishing your decre d be integrating and assimilating these populations. Otherwise, they will c the highest success rate at integrating and assimilating these populations, _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-


    This is a generalization, but the upper class families tend to have less kids than the poor families that rely on goverment assistance. Bringing in immigrants from countries that are known to have larger families is a limited strategy. Once they become assimilated into the mainstream culture, the
    better off newly naturalized citizens will follow the norm and have less children. Bringing in people in order to bring in more people makes little sense unless they invest and contribute to the system rather than feed off of it.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 12:11:00
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Mon May 30 2022 05:16 pm

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am


    I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked tha despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hir based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of liter racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particu race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quit literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.


    in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is arrested an

    if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description.

    i come from a diverse background and half my family is black and my family

    This was more noticable during the Obama years. After the Sandy Hook mass shooting, any possible incident was sure to make the news, except for the shooting in New Orleans where 19 participants of a Mother's Day parade were shot and wounded. The two shooters were young black males, and shot at the parade as part of a gang initiation. The rival gang had members marching in the parade with their mothers. Black on black crimes hardly ever made the hea dlines, or if race wasn't mentioned, it implied it was left out on purpose.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 16:53:00
    Just in case it is not clear, my general position on this issue is that I am not against immigration per-se but I am against incentivicing it.

    + 1


    * SLMR 2.1a * My wife made me join a bridge club...I jump next week.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 16:54:00
    if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
    no mention of race.

    That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a
    TV story.


    * SLMR 2.1a * True Multitasking = 3 PCs and a chair with wheels!

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to KAELON on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 16:56:00
    The United States, despite the January 6th Insurrection (wholly manufactured b
    President Trump and his supporters), and the many social challenges stemming f
    m cultural, racial, and economic tensions (which have endured since our Foundi
    , with episodes from the Civil War to Martin Luther King to Rodney King and no
    the Black Lives Matter movements), is still a suitable example for several rea
    ns:

    You seem to be ignoring the 2020 Summer of Riots, which I think is what the poster was refering to when he mentioned the US being on fire.


    * SLMR 2.1a * I'm dangerous when I know what I'm doing.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 22:17:05
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 04:54 pm

    if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
    no mention of race.

    That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a TV story.



    that's how it used to be. but they dont do it anymore in my area in the liberal newspapers.
    i have to use another source to find photo and description.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to DaiTengu on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 22:17:00
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 07:32 am

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

    here's some info on our areas:

    Appleton Demographics
    White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

    Milwaukee Demographics
    White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian 4.26%


    Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lo

    Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that sa

    DaiTengu

    ... There's little worse than being peerless in a peer-review system.


    Goshen, Indiana was a sundown town. Anderson, Indiana was also a sundown
    town.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 20:24:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:45 pm

    You keep trying to deny there is policy, when clearly, immigration policy, as well as the ideological push towards "diversity" and the "melting pot" is cleary a deliberate goal.

    I disagree that this is the goal. You ascribe racialist intent to a demographic policy, because you see the world in racial terms. I see
    the world in geopolitical terms, and as I describe elsewhere and here,
    the policies we have for immigration are numerical in origin: they are economic and they are demographic. If there were enough White
    immigrants, for example, willing to accept the economic and demographic circumstances of immigrating to France or Britain, I assure you, they would be taken.

    "Diversity," as a sociopolitical argument, is a way of managing the outcomes of the goal. It's really simple: this is all about numbers.
    The largest (i.e., most populous and geographically expansive /
    resource rich) nation-states are the most prosperous and powerful on
    the planet. Conversely, nation-states with shrinking populations or
    with ecologically or geographically challenged circumstances, are
    looking at a certain geopolitical destiny as a second-rate (if not subjugated) power.

    That's the goal here.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    How do you account for those who clearly state that changing demographics will change the character of the nation? How do you account for accusations that someting is "too white"? How do you accont for protests against any other view being "racist".

    If one particular view is an "ism", then surely another particular view is as well. You view things through a Geopolitical lens, which is reasonable enough, but at some point we have to step back and say "what for".

    I DO take a nationalistic point of view because it is in my self interest to do so, just as it is in self interest of a ruling elite, or a ruling aristocracy, to do what it takes to maintain THEIR power.

    The largest states may win, but WHAT wins? There is the issue, the nihilism inherit within the modern so called nation state. The state itself is its own power, its own entity, and represents its own interest, which is decoupled from the people who had created it. The US was founded with the idea that would be for OUR prosperity. Not for the sake of the state itself, but for the benefit of the people who founded it. If not for that, then what?

    What value is the UK, or France, or Australia, or the US for that matter, when the only metric, the only judgement of success is the state appartus and the administrative entity? The nation-state become like a corporation, and we become like employees, who only have an interest if we are employed.

    This is the pathology here. The nation-state has decoupled from the people who created and built it, and is itself its own meaning. Britains success is no longer the success of the British people, but just the organisations that claim to be "Britain". The state no longer represents a people.

    So why should I care if my own country is the biggest, when it has no loyalty to me?

    It is irrelevant to me if Australia is successful, if the proposition of Australia no longer represent, or is, what I am. Just as the US become less and less relevant, when it represents, less and less, what Americans are. IT becomes a hollow proposition state, and such states cannot be free, they must become authoritarian. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether a nation state lives or not. They are artificial constructs anyway. Culture, people, ethnic groups, that which will still persist, THEY are real.

    In the West (unlike say, China), we've removed this factor from our analysis, from our worldview. We're purely geo-political, but have defined ourselves out of existence. This is why Chinese *WILL* overtake Americans as a force. There will still be a Chinese nation, but only a hollowed out American empire.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 20:52:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

    This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

    I think the process is largely unstoppable, not without a real
    replacement to the solution to the problem - which I have argued repeatedly is demographic in origin. If Britain were to surpass 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it would no longer be in demographic
    crisis within one generation. China and Korea can impose immigration restrictions because it has a demographic crisis in the other direction
    -- too many people, not enough resources to maintain them.

    Perpetual population growth is simply not sustainable. We MUST face a new reality, that populations are not going to always increase.

    It is expected at some point in this or next century, that this will become the norm. We simply cannot be reliant on alway having above replacement population growth.

    The size of the population will wax and wane, but the problem is not the birthrate. It is our inability to adapt to a world with education, birth control, automation and machinery.

    The process is not unstoppable. Government policy created it, and government policy can be changed.

    But I do issue a warning, I do not believe that things will play out the way people think. The more balkanised the population, the MORE identity politics will come into play.

    White people are simply the last to realise that Identity Politics IS the politics of the 21'st century. Idiot conservatives are the ones who are blind to this, as they are still stuck in the 1950's.

    This is a new tangent, and I am happy to debate it, but there is vast evidence that shows that the policy of the Third Reich - beyond what it publicly espoused in documentation - was racialist in origin. Every decision made during the Second World War, from electing not to
    complete Operation Sea Lion against the British, turn its attention to Russia and the expansive East, or to divert critical manufacturing resources to hasten the shipping of Jews to the concentration camps in
    the final year of the war, were all premised upon the real aim - what Himmler would later state "even if we lose, future generations will
    laud us for our achievement" - which was to depopulate the continent of non-Aryans. _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    They were racialist, but they were Nazi's before they were racialist. The very fact they were able to kill other Europeans by the hundreds of thousands for their own regime's view of history I think demonstrates where their priorities lie. They killed Eastern Europeans by the millions, who clearly are genetically closer to them than the Japanese they allied with.

    Not to mention the Germans they killed, or were willing to sacrifice. The more the war dragged on, the more it seemed that Hitler was willing to sacrifice so much blood for what he believed to be the real cause, manifest destiny. The Germans were supposed to rule, and if they couldn't, they weren't worthy of it and didn't deserve to survive. The people, he saw, were just fodder for an IDEA. Absolute statism! Fascism!

    Fascism and this type of statism are completely incompatible with a state which exists for a peoples prosperity. At least when done by Westerners. China for some reason has managed to maintain a Fascist state which hasn't become demographically dysgenic, but I think this is due to a different mindset. Perhaps because they aren't interested in Empire.

    The theories of the Third Reich weren't their inventions, but ideas which had been floating around beforehand, some of them quite preposterous (belief in hollow earth, hyperboreans). They misunderstood (or abused) Darwins beliefs and took a more occult/mystical analysis than any scientific or demographic analysis.

    My view is that it was a dysgenic mind-virus. It became pathological because it believed that there was an arc of history, a destiny, a particular telos, or end goal. Such ideologies ALWAYS end up pathological and destructive. Communism, Nazism, any ideology which supposes a "right side" and "wrong side" of history, which believes that there is this one outcome which must come about will turn bad, and will twist ideas to justify itself, and the power of those who rule by it.

    None of this is related to how wide you hold the gates into your own country. These are seperate things. You will NOT find in your research, accusations against Germany for not wanting to become a multiracial state, or not being diverse. The idea that not embracing the Ben & Jerry's vision of the future makes one therefore a Nazi is a poor application of the slippery slope fallacy, the same as arguing that any liberalisation of sexual mores will lead a retern of pederasty.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 20:56:00
    MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am


    I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.


    in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is
    arrested and they are white: you get a photo. you get them mentioned
    as being white several times.

    if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.

    i come from a diverse background and half my family is black and my family are immigrants. so fuck people telling me how to talk. ---

    Yeah, when the descriptions are conspiciously vague, you know. Or the tried and tested "youths"... I like that one, "youths" that are 28 years old.

    It's the same problem here in Australia. The truth has be be reported in a way so that people don't actually figure out what the truth is.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 20:57:00
    Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

    Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
    Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

    I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" bei European, but not Anglo.

    At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

    Nightfox

    I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples li on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.


    It is done because it looks favorable on paper to the community and the government.

    Several years ago a local radio station was mentioned on the news
    because it fell within the lower percentile of radio stations in it's progamming format with regards to hiring minorities and overall
    diversity of employees.

    In defense of theirselves, the radio station manager pointet out they
    had been under a hiring freeze for that year, so any new employee would
    be a direct replacement of another, and no one left the company that
    year. They also pulled the job application forms for the last five
    years, and no one considered as a minority had applied. It was at the time a stand alone statio n with one tower and a small building next to it. My guess is 10-15 employees. Album oriented rock, and other than DJ's babysitting an automated system, they had two guys in the morning telling jokes and reading traffic reports and sometimes an afternoon
    guy that will air calls. The morning guys and afternoon guys were replaced by syndicated radio shows. All the rest were engineers,
    admin, or sales folk. They had historically hired all their talen
    from the local college, so that also narrowed down their choices as to
    who applied to their communications programs.

    They got off the list bottom eventually. They were bought up by a
    larger broadcast company that kept the transmitter but closed down the office. They moved everyone into a larger building with all their other affiliates and laid off whoever they no longer needed. The station
    format is talk radio, and nearly every show is syndicated.

    Here is the thing. This looks good for what reason? For IDEOLOGICAL reasons!

    What do such intitiatives serve? They serve ideologies. If our country were run for our interests, you wouldn't see such ideas. So we live in a state where ideological interests trump our own interests.


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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 21:04:00
    Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.

    This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

    I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries, as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints, other than to be the pawns of greater powers.

    The Third Reich would never have triumphed long term because it was based on Great Man (figuratively speaking) and had an unsustainable ideology.

    The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would fi yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking again the regime, than if you were married to a black person.

    The narrative that the war/fight was about racism is a post-hoc rationalise the West to justify demographic changes by leadership. No one back then was stupid enough to conflate the Nazi's specific racial ideas with restricted immigration. That confusion, which you are spreading, came later.

    At what point do the British or French get to say that immigration should be curtailed? When they are less then 50%, 40%, 30%?


    The "big lie" the Reich was built upon was based on blaming the
    nation's problems on minority groups with obvious or strong presence. Conspiracy that external ethnic and religious groups were there to contaminate their culture and destroy the nation from the inside.

    Jews specifically, then Slavs. They didn't blame everyone who wasn't German.

    Scapegoats are commonly used, but the fact that they used a "race" as a scapegoat is of secondary importance. They could have used "Communists" (they did), or "liberals", or even "white nationalists" or "racists" or "conservatives" as their scapegoat. The only thing that matters is it serves their end goals.

    Communists had their scapegoats. They blamed "wreckers" and "counter revolutionaries" and killed millions for their failings. Stalin killed more than Hitler after all. Mao as well.

    Our mistake is thinking that any expression of self interest will lead to scapegoating, which is a misunderstanding of power politics. The danger isn't self-interest, the danger is bad ideology.

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dumas Walker on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 08:52:10
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Dumas Walker to KAELON on Tue May 31 2022 04:56 pm

    You seem to be ignoring the 2020 Summer of Riots, which I think is what the poster was refering to when he mentioned the US being on fire.

    I am definitely not ignoring the Black Lives Matter movement, of which the 2020 "Summer of Riots" was an episode. It's just that BLM is part of an American tradition of dealing with its origins as a Slave Nation. We've been having race riots since before the Civil War, and they happen very predictably every 5-7 years.

    Despite the media hysteria around it, race relations between non-Blacks and Blacks in the United States aren't deteriorating. They're just not getting much better, and it is part of our national reckoning. It is challenging to assimilate a population that was kidnapped here from a distant land and enslaved for domestic and agrarian servitude. But it will eventually be done, and when done properly, it will forever change the character of the United States.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 09:15:21
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:24 pm

    How do you account for those who clearly state that changing demographics will change the character of the nation? How do you account for accusations that someting is "too white"? How do you accont for protests against any other view being "racist".

    I don't really perpetuate the social aprobrium over the term "racialist," because while I certainly understand that it leads down a path of exclusionary violence (and it is, in my opinion, inescapable for racialists to themselves turn to force in order to enact their agenda), I don't necessarily think this in and of itself is a bad thing. It is, however, racialist - and it's important to call it out for what it is. Your core argument is that the national character of a country is aligned to the ethnic composition of its current dominant race (namely, "Whites," as you have identified them). That is a racialist perspective, as opposed to the overwhelmingly dominant perspective of most Western nation-states, which is not racialist, but corporatist (and you alude to this point later, which I also agree with).

    If one particular view is an "ism", then surely another particular view is as well. You view things through a Geopolitical lens, which is reasonable enough, but at some point we have to step back and say "what for".

    I DO take a nationalistic point of view because it is in my self interest to do so, just as it is in self interest of a ruling elite, or a ruling aristocracy, to do what it takes to maintain THEIR power.

    So in your view, your personal self interest is aligned with the self interest of your race? And that other races are inherently a threat to your self interest, because they will "change the character" of your country?

    The largest states may win, but WHAT wins? There is the issue, the nihilism inherit within the modern so called nation state. The state itself is its own power, its own entity, and represents its own interest, which is decoupled from the people who had created it. The US was founded with the idea that would be for OUR prosperity. Not for the sake of the state itself, but for the benefit of the people who founded it. If not for that, then what?

    In all fairness - and this is not a popular view, but it is the truth - the United States was founded as a merchant republic for trading companies (literally, the ancestors of today's 'corporations') to be able to operate geopolitically without impunity by the British Crown. Yes, the British Crown's general incompetence and financial mismanagement of the Colonies made the argument for independence easier, but the United States was a different "culture" (or, really, 12 different cultures - see, again, "American Nations") all based upon the 12 different settler companies that colonized the Americas. It was never designed to be a racialist state - to the contrary, its origins were to welcome peoples of all origins, so long as they were prepared to contribute with their labor and talents to the various companies and, later, corporations that made up the American states.

    This is in start contrast to the other Nation-States of Europe, which were entities created around a single specific culture. That is not the case for the United States, for Australia (to an extent), and today, for the European Union, all of whom exist primarily for corporate financial interests.

    What value is the UK, or France, or Australia, or the US for that matter, when the only metric, the only judgement of success is the state appartus and the administrative entity? The nation-state become like a corporation, and we become like employees, who only have an interest if we are employed.

    I don't think the State has much value in the Anglo-Saxon tradition today; it is simply an administrative means for the corporate end. Corporations in the United States, United Kingdom, and Australia (to a lesser extent), are the dominant political players that drive the policies of their governments. And this is precisely how these governments were built: to represent the elite through the machinery of elections that favored incumbency, prioritized established hierarchies, and necessarily favored wealthy people over the poor.

    This is the pathology here. The nation-state has decoupled from the people who created and built it, and is itself its own meaning. Britains success is no longer the success of the British people, but just the organisations that claim to be "Britain". The state no longer represents a people.

    The term "pathology" suggests that something is going poorly here. I disagree; this is precisely the plan. The United States, the United Kingdom, the European Union, and most "western" states are now well into multiple generations of institution-building to create the so called "Australia, Inc." or "Britain, Inc." In essence, creating a global trading power coupled with the military and industrial resources necessary to support the commercial projection of these entities, is the plan.

    So why should I care if my own country is the biggest, when it has no loyalty to me?

    Your country was never loyal to you. You are clinging to a populist idea that has never, institutionally, really existed. If it did, then the political system would have been totally different. Rather than a representative parliamentary democracy, Australia could have / should have had a meritocratic oligarchy favoring native-born Australians over non-native born outsiders. Constitutionally, Australia is organized for the benefit of revenue. Much like the United Kingdom, the United States, and increasingly, the European Union.

    It is irrelevant to me if Australia is successful, if the proposition of Australia no longer represent, or is, what I am. Just as the US become less and less relevant, when it represents, less and less, what Americans are.
    IT becomes a hollow proposition state, and such states cannot be free, they must become authoritarian. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether a nation state lives or not. They are artificial constructs anyway. Culture, people, ethnic groups, that which will still persist, THEY are real.

    Culture exists, there is no doubt, in the minds of the people who recognize them. There is also the dangerous - and yet vital - conversation about how people from different regions of the world develop biological traits and characteristics, passed through generations, that favor certain geographic dispositions. But these cultural constructs aren't reflected in any modern nation-state, not even China (see below).

    In the West (unlike say, China), we've removed this factor from our analysis, from our worldview. We're purely geo-political, but have defined ourselves out of existence. This is why Chinese *WILL* overtake Americans as a force. There will still be a Chinese nation, but only a hollowed out American empire.

    I think this is grossly inaccurate. China is really five different and distinct cultures forced together through brutal ideology; all five of these cultures are deeply and violently opposed to one another. Ask a Cantonese merchant what he really thinks of a Beijing administrator, and you will see just one of the many examples. When you compare the Han Chinese, vs. Shianghai, vs. Western Chinese, and all of these various other cultures, you will see that - were it not for the brutal authoritarian Communist Party - these regions of China would have all split apart and become different states, with each their own value systems.

    Additionally, China lacks the geopolitical resources to meaningfully displace the United States. Yes, it has population - but its population is in demographic crisis: it is too large, and also (thanks to the failed authoritarian dictate of the "One Child Policy") perilously unbalanced in favor of too many men this generation. In the rural and suburban countryside of China, with just a few percentage points difference between the number of men and women, there are forced marriages, kidnappings, and rapes that run rampant across society because of a generation of men who, numerically, will become involuntarily celibate (not because of choice, but simply because of numbers). There are countless examples of the demographic crisis. But the real problem is less demographics (because policies can address the demographic imbalance), but the geography.

    More than 75% of China is impassible, useless terrain. Conversely, the only usable terrain of China is densely overpopulated, seriously over-mined, and increasingly boxed in by Japan, South Korea, India, and the United States. It is partly for that reason that the Communist Party feels so threatened by the "Big Four" and multinational institutions - because it isn't seen as a reliable / transparent and accountable corporate partner, and because it is being checked. But more importantly, it doesn't have very many good options to respond.

    Yes, China will continue to grow and may, eventually, overtake the United States from a raw revenue perspective, given its vast population. But as a geopolitical power, China is trapped as a regional great power, at best, and its ambitions as a superpower are limited by its unfortunate position on our planet - a fact it will try to remedy by constructing islands, invading other countries, and potentially eventually sparking a Third World War.

    See: https://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/06/the-island-of-china/
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 13:27:38
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Dumas Walker on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:52 am

    I am definitely not ignoring the Black Lives Matter movement, of which the 2 "Summer of Riots" was an episode. It's just that BLM is part of an American tradition of dealing with its origins as a Slave Nation. We've been having race riots since before the Civil War, and they happen very predictably ever 5-7 years.


    I guess it is a tradition as respectable as slowly slicing a bull to death in a public arena and calling it bullfighting, or driving dolphins into a gulf and massacring them with sledgehammers to the point the waters get so red you d think the Cannae Battle has happened there four times in five minutes.

    Being traditional does not mean something is defensible. That is, if you manage to convince anybody that it is traditional to begin with XD

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 11:49:29
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:52 pm

    Perpetual population growth is simply not sustainable. We MUST face a new reality, that populations are not going to always increase.

    It is expected at some point in this or next century, that this will become the norm. We simply cannot be reliant on alway having above replacement population growth.

    The size of the population will wax and wane, but the problem is not the birthrate. It is our inability to adapt to a world with education, birth control, automation and machinery.

    The process is not unstoppable. Government policy created it, and government policy can be changed.

    A couple of thoughts on this:

    1. The United States and Australia are two perfect examples of countries that have the geographic advantages of vast natural resources, and a miniscule population to harvest those resources, to maximize their geopolitical potential. So, at least for the U.S. and Australia, increasing population - not decreasing it - has to be the geopolitical norm, because this will allow you to tap the full potential of your country.

    2. Urbanization, as a consequence of the military industrialization of national economies (largely a post-war phenomenon), resulted in the broad realignment of culture in the United States - away from the agrarian, large-family ethos, towards the urban, smaller-family ethos - and it directly paired with a higher standard of living. In order to move away from this demographic crisis - which results in lower birth rates because of how people live, work, and play - we need to radically change how people live, work, and play. The Pandemic helped initiate (or accelerate, depending upon which sociologist you consult) a broad re-examination of the balance between work and life, one which had not really been examined since the Middle Ages - when tradespeople worked in a place nominally distinct from where they lived, and used time-tracking (thanks to the emergence of the clock) as a way to commoditize their lifespan, rather than live more holistically by daylight vs. nighttime hours. To achieve what you propose, we need to reinvent society to the pre-Middle Ages state, and perhaps examine a Roman era where people lived lives more fully and integrated. However, I think the boat has largely sailed on this question, given that the modern nation-state is, in effect, a corporation that maximizes the value of its government through the extraction of revenues from its population, resources, and the trade that it can produce.

    A reimagining of society in this way can either be gradual and profound -- the way the United States seems to be embarking on this, with great pains, whereby cultural conservatives are re-examining previously settled constructs, like birth control and the autonomy of a woman's body and role in society -- or sudden and extremely violent. It is my general view that we won't see a solution in our lifetimes, because just as the post-Renaissaince world order in Europe could only be reimagined through the colonization of the New World and the demographic and geopolitical challenges that this posed, I do believe that our current planetary "world order" of corporatist revenue maximization (constant growth, constant expansion) will only be checked by a reimagined way of living and producing value. The Colonization of Mars, or another planet, or possibly the seas below, may spur such a moment.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 11:52:32
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 01:27 pm

    I guess it is a tradition as respectable as slowly slicing a bull to death in a public arena and calling it bullfighting, or driving dolphins into a gulf and massacring them with sledgehammers to the point the waters get so red you d think the Cannae Battle has happened there four times in five minutes.

    Being traditional does not mean something is defensible. That is, if you manage to convince anybody that it is traditional to begin with XD

    Because there is no national consensus on the integration of the formerly enslaved African American population into mainstream American Society -- and the lack of this consensus demonstrates itself given the constant alternation between extremely progressive engagement of African Americans in all spheres of political, econonic, and social life; vs. the continuation of the brutally enslaving prison-industrial system, that extracts labor from imprisoned African Americans, who are often coerced or conditioned into lives of crime by the circumstances deemed societally preferable -- I think we're likely to see a continuation of this re-examination for generations to come.

    Again, this is not a popular perspective, but to somehow suggest that things are getting worse, is to turn a blind eye to the entire history of the American Republic as deeply racist, enslaving, imperial, and corporatist, as a basic fundamental question of our existence.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 16:56:00
    if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
    no mention of race.

    That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a
    TV story.



    that's how it used to be. but they dont do it anymore in my area in the libe
    l newspapers.
    i have to use another source to find photo and description.

    One thing I have noticed with the mass shootings lately is that they fall
    out of the news a lot faster if the shooter is not a white male. The Texas
    one may turn out to be an exception because the shooter was practically a
    kid, and nearly all the victims were kids.

    But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
    I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.

    It is difficult for the press, and especially certain politicians, to push
    a "white supremacy" problem when the persons doing the shooting are
    starting to turn not white.


    * SLMR 2.1a * SYSOP (sih' sawp) n. The guy laughing at your typing.

    ---
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Kaelon on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 16:56:03
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Dumas Walker on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:52 am

    Despite the media hysteria around it, race relations between non-Blacks and Blacks in the United States aren't deteriorating. They're just not getting much better, and it is part of our national reckoning.

    Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response nowadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of incidents is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Wednesday, June 01, 2022 21:29:23
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jun 01 2022 04:56 pm


    But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
    I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.


    yeah, that one where it was a graduation party and the woman stopped the shooter with her handgun was almost invisible.
    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to poindexter FORTRAN on Thursday, June 02, 2022 07:44:06
    Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 04:56 pm

    Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response nowadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of incidents is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.

    I would agree with you. Even before social media, cable news and the 24-hour non-stop news cycle generated, in essence, sensationalism, entertainment-as-information (or "infotainment"), and amplification of stories that were really fairly typical. They needed to fill air time, after all. Former NJ Senator Bill Bradley (D) wrote a great book about this in 1999, forecasting that the emergence of infotainment and the coming storm of the Internet would forever eradicate moderation, the search for truth, and lead to a much more polarized, artificially camp-driven mindset across America.

    Joe Trippi, Howard Dean's Campaign Manager, also wrote in 2003 in his book, "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised," that the Internet had taken the average attention span of audiences from about 30 minutes closer to 2 min 30 sec. He also concluded that the news cycle had been shortened from 72 hours (from event to completion of reporting and readiness to move on to the next stop) to about 3-6 hours, thanks in large part to blogs and websites (and later, though not in his book, Twitter would be seen as a major aggrivating and complicating factor).

    Today, emphasis on news being timely ("now" or "live"), relevant (properly taxonomized and trending), and actionable (sharable, and to use Malcolm Gladwell's critique of digital democracy, "weak ties" activitism-enabled) has led to non-news being reported as newsworthy, and given birth to fake news and machines of propaganda that cannot even keep up with generating enough falsehoods to meet the reader demand. It's a sad and troubling state of affairs for democracy.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Thursday, June 02, 2022 16:48:00
    Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response wadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of inci
    nts is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.

    I don't think you are too far off base.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Mistress: halfway between a mister and a mattress.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Thursday, June 02, 2022 16:49:00

    But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
    I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.


    yeah, that one where it was a graduation party and the woman stopped the shoot
    with her handgun was almost invisible.

    There was one at a church, too, where they subdued the gunman.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Ensign Pillsbury? He's BREAD, Jim......

    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Kaelon on Friday, June 03, 2022 21:02:53
    On 5/28/22 10:16 AM, Kaelon wrote:

    1. Improve demographic and economic conditions for its native
    population, to get to at least 2,100 births per 1,000 people.
    Most of the West is well below basic replacement figures, and
    is reliant upon immigration to meet basic population economic
    needs.

    Why does any given nation need to even maintain its' population?

    Especially if you consider automation, quality of life and other impacts
    of an ever increasing population.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Tracker1 on Saturday, June 04, 2022 12:05:51
    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Tracker1 to Kaelon on Fri Jun 03 2022 09:02 pm

    Why does any given nation need to even maintain its' population?

    Especially if you consider automation, quality of life and other impacts
    of an ever increasing population.

    Nations that have untapped natural resources and plenty of geographic advantages have not yet reached population saturation, and should continue to grow to maximize productivity, tax revenues, and development.

    Furthermore, geopolitically, this is ultimately a numbers game. Russia's population has been steadily shrinking and Ukraine's population has been steadily growing; this has led to a dramatic shift and imbalance in geopolitical power between the two, and it was one of the many factors that led Vladimir Putin to elect to invade this year. Because by next year, he'd lose the geopolitical capability to launch an invasion and sustain it against the Ukrainian people. But because Ukraine had continued growing, developing, and expanding - especially after 2014 - Russia encountered a far more developed, populous, and capable opponent.

    This should be a good reminder of how, at the end of it all, it does come down to numbers.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Kaelon on Sunday, June 05, 2022 08:11:00
    Kaelon wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Russia's population has been steadily shrinking and Ukraine's
    population has been steadily growing; this has led to a dramatic shift
    and imbalance in geopolitical power between the two, and it was one of
    the many factors that led Vladimir Putin to elect to invade this year.

    That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged
    to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?




    ... Do you ever wish you could forget?
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Kaelon@VERT to poindexter FORTRAN on Sunday, June 05, 2022 16:24:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Sun Jun 05 2022 08:11 am

    That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?

    Exactly. Wiping out Ukraine's culture is the ideological necessity behind what is basically a numerical problem that Russia will solve by kidnapping, brainwashing, and "Russifying" hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Wednesday, June 08, 2022 18:45:34
    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Jun 05 2022 04:24 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Sun Jun 05 2022 08:11 am

    That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?

    Exactly. Wiping out Ukraine's culture is the ideological necessity behind what is basically a numerical problem that Russia will solve by kidnapping, brainwashing, and "Russifying" hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-


    Where are these reports of exfiltration coming from?

    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Thursday, June 09, 2022 12:55:48
    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed Jun 08 2022 06:45 pm

    Where are these reports of exfiltration coming from?

    If you research reports, you will see that the United States, NATO, and even the Russians themselves, confirm the strategy of exfiltrating the Ukrainian population. The United Nations has put the official death-count at ~4,000 civilians so far, but both Ukraine and Russia have confirmed tens of thousands of deaths on each side (with Russia acknowledging it is suffering far heavier losses from its botched invasion of Ukraine), and over 4 million refugees, at least 1 million of which were "forcibly relocated" into Russia.

    Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Friday, June 10, 2022 20:38:51
    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Thu Jun 09 2022 12:55 pm

    If you research reports, you will see that the United States, NATO, and even the Russians themselves, confirm the strategy of exfiltrating the Ukrainian population. The United Nations has put the official death-count at ~4,000 civilians so far, but both Ukraine and Russia have confirmed tens of thousands of deaths on each side (with Russia acknowledging it is suffering far heavier losses from its botched invasion of Ukraine), and over 4 million refugees, at least 1 million of which were "forcibly relocated" into Russia.

    Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-


    The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

    One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Kaelon on Friday, June 10, 2022 08:01:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make
    Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail. _____

    But at what cost to Ukraine, and the world? Ukraine's harvested wheat is dissapearing into Russia, and future harvests are in jeopardy.

    Even if Russia loses, Ukraine loses too.

    I'd love to see reparations, but I'm not optimistic.


    ... Would you like to go back?
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Boraxman on Friday, June 10, 2022 08:02:00
    Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

    The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
    how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

    One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

    9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.


    ... Would you like to go back?
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to poindexter FORTRAN on Saturday, June 11, 2022 12:27:29
    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:02 am

    Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

    The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
    how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

    One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

    9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.


    I don't think they'll stop there. The "Rules Based Order" is at war with Russia and China and perhaps other allies.

    We're the new empire the world is fighting against.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to poindexter FORTRAN on Friday, June 10, 2022 23:31:04
    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:02 am

    Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

    The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
    how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

    One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

    9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.


    ... Would you like to go back?

    i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
    usa should stay out of it.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Saturday, June 11, 2022 22:20:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Jun 10 2022 11:31 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:02 am

    Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

    The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

    One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

    9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.


    ... Would you like to go back?

    i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
    usa should stay out of it.

    The Russians are proving themsleves in the Ukraine to be way behind the
    curve. last time I checked they had lost over 14 generals and 40 colonels
    in combat. They lack secure comms, and use cell phones and cheap Chinese baofeng commercial band radios. Ukrainian artillery is dead nutz accurate be cause it is fed GPS coordinates from Russian troop's and officers phones.
    This is not a new idea. Back in the 90's during the Bosnian conflict officers responsible for war crimes were using unsecured cell phones, and were easily caught.

    Their 40 mile convoy was impressive until it ran out of gas and the dry
    rotted Chinese tires tore apart. Their latest planes capable of dropping guided munitions are dropping dumb iron bombs (and missing) due to lack of guided muntions. Their tanks are easy prey for drones dropping RPG shaped charges with 3d printed fins.

    Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy over
    and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sunday, June 12, 2022 09:07:34
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sat Jun 11 2022 10:20 pm

    i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
    usa should stay out of it.

    The Russians are proving themsleves in the Ukraine to be way behind the curve. last time I checked they had lost over 14 generals and 40 colonels in combat. They lack secure comms, and use cell phones and cheap Chinese baofeng commercial band radios. Ukrainian artillery is dead nutz accurate be cause it is fed GPS coordinates from Russian troop's and officers phones. This is not a new idea. Back in the 90's during the Bosnian conflict officers responsible for war crimes were using unsecured cell phones, and were easily caught.

    Their 40 mile convoy was impressive until it ran out of gas and the dry rotted Chinese tires tore apart. Their latest planes capable of dropping guided munitions are dropping dumb iron bombs (and missing) due to lack of guided muntions. Their tanks are easy prey for drones dropping RPG shaped charges with 3d printed fins.

    Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy over and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.


    if you say so.

    "Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring Bakhmut those with nowhere else to go brace for their arrival
    5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
    By Ben Wedeman, CNN

    Updated 9:40 AM ET, Sun June 12, 2022"

    rolling stone:

    "`They're Wiping Us From Earth': Evading Russian Artillery With a Ukrainian Military Unit"

    "Russia is now in control of much of Severodonetsk, the epicenter of the battle for Ukraine's eastern Donbas region
    By Josh Pennington, Irene Nasser and Jorge Engels, CNN

    Updated 8:45 PM ET, Sat June 11, 2022

    "
    Have a look inside Russia's new 'Tasty' McDonald's replacement
    Close
    The first of Russia's rebranded McDonald's has opened in Moscow, after the famous fast food brand ended all operations in the country.

    Last month McDonald's announced the closure of all restaurants in the Russia, citing the "humanitarian crisis" and "unpredictable operating environment" caused by the war in Ukraine.

    The fast food company sold more than 800 restaurants to Russian businessman Alexander Govor.

    The branches will now reopen under the new name of "Vkusno i Tochka", which translates to"Tasty and that's it".

    The BBC's Russia editor Steve Rosenberg visited the Moscow restaurant on its first day."

    and russia put it's money in chinese banks.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sunday, June 12, 2022 14:16:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jun 12 2022 09:07 am

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sat Jun 11 2022 10:20 pm

    i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
    usa should stay out of it.

    The Russians are proving themsleves in the Ukraine to be way behind the curve. last time I checked they had lost over 14 generals and 40 colonel in combat. They lack secure comms, and use cell phones and cheap Chinese baofeng commercial band radios. Ukrainian artillery is dead nutz accurat be cause it is fed GPS coordinates from Russian troop's and officers phon This is not a new idea. Back in the 90's during the Bosnian conflict officers responsible for war crimes were using unsecured cell phones, and were easily caught.

    Their 40 mile convoy was impressive until it ran out of gas and the dry rotted Chinese tires tore apart. Their latest planes capable of dropping guided munitions are dropping dumb iron bombs (and missing) due to lack o guided muntions. Their tanks are easy prey for drones dropping RPG shape charges with 3d printed fins.

    Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy ove and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.


    if you say so.

    "Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring B 5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
    By Ben Wedeman, CNN

    Updated 9:40 AM ET, Sun June 12, 2022"

    rolling stone:

    "`They're Wiping Us From Earth': Evading Russian Artillery With a Ukrainian

    "Russia is now in control of much of Severodonetsk, the epicenter of the bat for Ukraine's eastern Donbas region
    By Josh Pennington, Irene Nasser and Jorge Engels, CNN

    Updated 8:45 PM ET, Sat June 11, 2022

    "
    Have a look inside Russia's new 'Tasty' McDonald's replacement
    Close
    The first of Russia's rebranded McDonald's has opened in Moscow, after the f

    Last month McDonald's announced the closure of all restaurants in the Russia

    The fast food company sold more than 800 restaurants to Russian businessman

    The branches will now reopen under the new name of "Vkusno i Tochka", which

    The BBC's Russia editor Steve Rosenberg visited the Moscow restaurant on its

    and russia put it's money in chinese banks.

    The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country
    under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Monday, June 13, 2022 10:09:04
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm

    if you say so.

    "Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring B 5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
    By Ben Wedeman, CNN

    Updated 9:40 AM ET, Sun June 12, 2022"

    rolling stone:

    "`They're Wiping Us From Earth': Evading Russian Artillery With a Ukrainian

    "Russia is now in control of much of Severodonetsk, the epicenter of the bat for Ukraine's eastern Donbas region
    By Josh Pennington, Irene Nasser and Jorge Engels, CNN

    Updated 8:45 PM ET, Sat June 11, 2022

    "
    Have a look inside Russia's new 'Tasty' McDonald's replacement
    Close
    The first of Russia's rebranded McDonald's has opened in Moscow, after the f

    Last month McDonald's announced the closure of all restaurants in the Russia

    The fast food company sold more than 800 restaurants to Russian businessman

    The branches will now reopen under the new name of "Vkusno i Tochka", which

    The BBC's Russia editor Steve Rosenberg visited the Moscow restaurant on its

    and russia put it's money in chinese banks.

    The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.

    You do realise that Ukraine is a large country, right? No way they could capture it in two months.

    During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sunday, June 12, 2022 23:04:46
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm


    and russia put it's money in chinese banks.

    The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.

    are you there? are you some military genius?

    this is from the washington post today:
    "Ukraine, on the brink of losing the eastern region of Luhansk to Russia, is warning that its outgunned military desperately needs faster deliveries of Western arms. Fierce street fighting is continuing in the strategic city of Severodonetsk, but "most of the city is controlled by Russians," the Luhansk governor said Saturday. An adviser to Ukraine's government said its forces could respond with only about one artillery round for every 10 fired by Russia.

    The fighting continues despite about 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers already having died during the invasion, a Ukrainian military adviser said Saturday. Ukraine recently noted that between 100 and 200 soldiers are killed each day."

    so did they run away that time?
    i'm sure russia will lose any day now. expecially with the sanctions we put on them and the weapons we give ukraine.

    did you see the threat that ukranian politician said where if russia won, the ukraine would join with russia and go against the west?

    here is an article where joe biden said we were giving ukraine information about a possible russian invasion and they ignored the info.
    https://apnews.com/85a2489b4fe1042cd03b0ae6f4421a04

    ukraine is a corrupt country. they are also full of nazis. just the other
    day they posted a pic of a ukrainian inspecting damage of a vehicle and he has a swastika on his arm https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/06/reuters-posts-photos-hoping-generate-western-sympathy-ukrainian-cause-accidentally-include-photo-ukrainian-nazi/?utm_source=Gab&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons

    https://preview.tinyurl.com/27m2re4z

    i think russia stopping ukraine from joining nato and demilitarising them
    is a very important. they should remain neutral.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Sunday, June 12, 2022 23:07:42
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Mon Jun 13 2022 10:09 am

    You do realise that Ukraine is a large country, right? No way they could capture it in two months.

    i don't think he can even find it on a map. he probably thinks it's some tiny country.

    it's the 2nd largest european country.
    https://i.imgur.com/rUS5qlV.png

    During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.

    the media is making people stupid.
    they were offering opinion pieces about how good the ukraine army was
    and how russia didn't stand a change. then they still had to deliver the facts on how well the russian army was doing.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Monday, June 13, 2022 18:14:56
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jun 12 2022 09:07 am

    Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy over
    and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.


    if you say so.

    "Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring Bakhmut those wit
    5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
    By Ben Wedeman, CNN

    [snips snip snip]

    Something I have learnt from watching lots and lots of war movies from the 30s and 40s is that
    once a real conflict kicks in, the propaganda machines of every nation involved will crank
    bullshit non stop until no information source remains to be believed.

    Japanesse media in WWII was all about how poorly equiped the Allies were, how they lacked
    discipline and how they could not build a structured army and how their officers were clueless.
    Does this sound familiar to you?

    Meanwhile WWII Chinesse movies were about how poorly equipped and stupid Japanesse troops were,
    how they lacked discipline and how they could not build an structured army and how their
    officers were clueless.

    I am sure you can guess the theme of American WWII movies. Actually, American movies spiced it
    up by adding an extra trope: that an American who has been a bastard can redeem himself and be
    remembered as a hero if he does the right thing and kills nazies and japs.

    So I am kind of skeptic regarding claims that this faction or that faction are losing because
    they are ill equipped or whatever. That is what everybody has been claiming to boost morale for
    centuries already XD



    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Monday, June 13, 2022 18:20:45
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm

    The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.


    They may be less than people was expecting them to be, but Russia is not fighting Ukraine. It
    is fighting Ukraine + Europe + the US. The latter two are concealed behind proxies but they are
    clearly there.

    The US could invade Mexico in a heart beat, unless Mexican troops had been armed by foreigner
    superpowers, there was international presure to debilitate the USD and its marketeability
    around the world, and Mexico itself was packed with Chinesse-funded mercenaries which "weren't
    actually there".

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Monday, June 13, 2022 18:25:02
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sun Jun 12 2022 11:07 pm

    During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land
    capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.

    the media is making people stupid.

    I am not sure, but if memory serves me well, German radio stations were telling the population
    that the German army was doing great during the Russian campaign in WWII. They only bothered
    notifying that somewhing was not going according to the plan once Stalin kicked the nazies out
    of Stalingrad, despite the fact it was notorious that things were going south for the nazies
    some time before that.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Monday, June 13, 2022 22:49:53
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Mon Jun 13 2022 06:20 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm

    The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.


    They may be less than people was expecting them to be, but Russia is not fighting Ukraine. It is fighting Ukraine + Europe + the US. The latter two are concealed behind proxies but they are clearly there.


    and also remember that china is on russia's side.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 20:04:57
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to MRO on Mon Jun 13 2022 06:25 pm

    During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land
    capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.

    the media is making people stupid.

    I am not sure, but if memory serves me well, German radio stations were telling the population
    that the German army was doing great during the Russian campaign in WWII. They only bothered
    notifying that somewhing was not going according to the plan once Stalin kicked the nazies out
    of Stalingrad, despite the fact it was notorious that things were going south for the nazies
    some time before that.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    A coversation overheard in Berlin at the end of WWII.

    "How did you know that we were losing the war?"

    "Our victories were getting closer and closer."

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 13:14:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jun 12 2022 11:04 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm


    and russia put it's money in chinese banks.

    The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the forc people have feared.

    are you there? are you some military genius?

    this is from the washington post today:
    "Ukraine, on the brink of losing the eastern region of Luhansk to Russia, is f the city is controlled by Russians," the Luhansk governor said Saturday. A

    The fighting continues despite about 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers already havin

    so did they run away that time?
    i'm sure russia will lose any day now. expecially with the sanctions we put

    did you see the threat that ukranian politician said where if russia won, th

    here is an article where joe biden said we were giving ukraine information a https://apnews.com/85a2489b4fe1042cd03b0ae6f4421a04

    ukraine is a corrupt country. they are also full of nazis. just the other day they posted a pic of a ukrainian inspecting damage of a vehicle and he h /?utm_source=Gab&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons

    https://preview.tinyurl.com/27m2re4z

    i think russia stopping ukraine from joining nato and demilitarising them
    is a very important. they should remain neutral.

    Sounds like pro-Putin propaganda. When Zelinsky came in to power, he was the anti-corruption president, pusihing Russian oligarchs out of positions of power. Nazi grafitti was creditied to these oligarchs as part of creating negative press, and that's what Putin does to justify all of his actions.

    Back tot he convoy near the beginning of the occupation, that was a move out
    of the US playbook and was also referred to as a blitz. In Iraq this tactic was used to take key cities as fast as possible. The Russians ran ot of gas, lost vehicles due to lack of maintenance, and ignorance of weather and ground conditions. Tanks are targets when left in the open sitting still. Trying
    to drive through thawing Ukraine mud jokingly called rasputina was a great
    way to stall tanks out in the open. Neither side has air superiority from my understanding. The skys are not patrolled and planes capable of using precision muntions are missing targets with dumb bombs. There have been mass desertions of Russian troops and pictures ont he news of rifles and packs
    left behind. The russians are traind to suppress civilians rather than fight against conventional forces. Any chances of a decisive victory have passed.

    Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go
    to war first and then seek to win. In Russia's case, they had a good plan
    that was screwed by their logisitics and years of corrupt officers stealing
    the government's money from their army.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 13:23:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to MRO on Mon Jun 13 2022 06:14 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jun 12 2022 09:07 am

    Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.


    if you say so.

    "Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighborin 5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
    By Ben Wedeman, CNN

    [snips snip snip]

    Something I have learnt from watching lots and lots of war movies from the 3 once a real conflict kicks in, the propaganda machines of every nation invol bullshit non stop until no information source remains to be believed.

    Japanesse media in WWII was all about how poorly equiped the Allies were, ho discipline and how they could not build a structured army and how their offi Does this sound familiar to you?

    Meanwhile WWII Chinesse movies were about how poorly equipped and stupid Jap how they lacked discipline and how they could not build an structured army a officers were clueless.

    I am sure you can guess the theme of American WWII movies. Actually, America up by adding an extra trope: that an American who has been a bastard can red remembered as a hero if he does the right thing and kills nazies and japs.

    So I am kind of skeptic regarding claims that this faction or that faction a they are ill equipped or whatever. That is what everybody has been claiming centuries already XD



    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    Fog of war and porpaganda are tools used by both sides. Best way to keep
    track of losses is count the refrigerator cars full of corpses and measure
    the size of mass graves. Counting dead vehicles and comparing them to the enemies' claims tells it's own story. So does watching drone footage or live footage of vehicles being destroyed.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 13:30:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Mon Jun 13 2022 06:20 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm

    The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the forc people have feared.


    They may be less than people was expecting them to be, but Russia is not fig is fighting Ukraine + Europe + the US. The latter two are concealed behind p clearly there.

    The US could invade Mexico in a heart beat, unless Mexican troops had been a superpowers, there was international presure to debilitate the USD and its m around the world, and Mexico itself was packed with Chinesse-funded mercenar actually there".

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    The Russians ran out of gas rolling into Kiev happened way before the other countries began sending aide. Other than missiles and drones, surplus tanks from the 70's and 80's are being donated. These donated weapons are being piloted by their regular army, not foriegn fighters brought in to supplement their forces. Granted this equipment is old, but not obsolete, but than
    again it doens't have the same systems an M1 Abrams would have either.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 22:43:14
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jun 14 2022 01:14 pm

    Sounds like pro-Putin propaganda.

    it's the facts.

    When Zelinsky came in to power, he was
    the anti-corruption president, pusihing Russian oligarchs out of positions of power.

    why is he a millionaire? he's not that big of a celebrity.
    why are there so many experimental labs there?
    anti corruption? yeah right

    Nazi grafitti was creditied to these oligarchs as part of
    creating negative press, and that's what Putin does to justify all of his actions.

    routers litterally posted a photo the other day with a ukraining. he had a big fucking swastika on his arm.
    https://i.imgur.com/psSuPPW.png


    Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors

    go
    to war first and then seek to win.

    oh, you are talking about sun tzu.
    they didnt have nukes back then.

    In Russia's case, they had a good plan
    that was screwed by their logisitics and years of corrupt officers stealing

    so what are you worried about? according to you russia is an army of idiots with rotten out tires. they run from every battle, right?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 06:12:14
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Tue Jun 14 2022 01:30 pm

    The Russians ran out of gas rolling into Kiev happened way before the other countries began sending aide. Other than missiles and drones, surplus tanks from the 70's and 80's are being donated. These donated weapons are being piloted by their regular army, not foriegn fighters brought in to supplement their forces. Granted this equipment is old, but not obsolete, but than again it doens't have the same systems an M1 Abrams would have either.


    If we have learnt something from the Western fuckups in the Middle East is that we may
    expect superpowers funding mercs as a way to send troops in without having to send
    troops.

    I know it sounds like speculation, but it is a matter of statistics. If it is always
    done and they have the motive and resources this time I see no reason why they aren't
    doing it today XD Having Marines on the ground is a political time bomb but having
    shadow soldiers that are not there is trouble-free, and everyboy is doing it so they
    can't accuse you of bringing mercs in because you will accuse them back.

    Besides, when complex equipment is sent to ANY industry it usually comes with an
    operator included by contract. My clinic does not buy new prothesics unless they
    either come with a techniccian to either use them or teach our surgeon how they work.
    I'd bet three bags of potatoes that drones etc. come with at least some techs included. Else, why would anybody bring in equipment nobody knows to use?




    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 09:53:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Wed Jun 15 2022 06:12 am

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Tue Jun 14 2022 01:30 pm

    The Russians ran out of gas rolling into Kiev happened way before the oth countries began sending aide. Other than missiles and drones, surplus ta from the 70's and 80's are being donated. These donated weapons are bein piloted by their regular army, not foriegn fighters brought in to supplem their forces. Granted this equipment is old, but not obsolete, but than again it doens't have the same systems an M1 Abrams would have either.


    If we have learnt something from the Western fuckups in the Middle East is t expect superpowers funding mercs as a way to send troops in without having t troops.

    I know it sounds like speculation, but it is a matter of statistics. If it i done and they have the motive and resources this time I see no reason why th doing it today XD Having Marines on the ground is a political time bomb but shadow soldiers that are not there is trouble-free, and everyboy is doing it can't accuse you of bringing mercs in because you will accuse them back.

    Besides, when complex equipment is sent to ANY industry it usually comes wit operator included by contract. My clinic does not buy new prothesics unless either come with a techniccian to either use them or teach our surgeon how t I'd bet three bags of potatoes that drones etc. come with at least some tech included. Else, why would anybody bring in equipment nobody knows to use?




    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is a
    way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.


    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 15:31:59
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am

    Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is a way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.


    Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember which side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, now you mention it.

    I guess taking cover and waiting for twelve seconds behind a wall does not remove bullet wounds in real life as well as it does in Call of Duty :-(

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 23:00:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Wed Jun 15 2022 03:31 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am

    Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skil trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.


    Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember whi side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, now you mention it.

    I guess taking cover and waiting for twelve seconds behind a wall does not remove bullet wounds in real life as well as it does in Call of Duty :-(

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    Yeah, joining a foriegn war where no one speaks your language well, and no pre vious history of military training with aspirations of being an operator are
    no promises of success.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Thursday, June 16, 2022 05:28:16
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Wed Jun 15 2022 03:31 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am

    Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is a way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.


    Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember which side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, now you mention it.


    i saw multiple instances of this. also these's a bunch of reddit nerds that were giving military advice and trying to cordinate groups to go to ukraine.

    there's a young father with little kids who was ex military who went over there and died. that's just stupid.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Thursday, June 16, 2022 05:28:55
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 11:00 pm

    Yeah, joining a foriegn war where no one speaks your language well, and no pre vious history of military training with aspirations of being an operator are
    no promises of success.

    the french foreign legion makes them learn french and they pretty much walk everywhere. they do eat well, it seems.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Thursday, June 16, 2022 13:07:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Arelor on Thu Jun 16 2022 05:28 am

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Wed Jun 15 2022 03:31 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am

    Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to les experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion a way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person wi a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.


    Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember which side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, no you mention it.


    i saw multiple instances of this. also these's a bunch of reddit nerds that

    there's a young father with little kids who was ex military who went over th

    A few years ago there was a TV seires called Fighting ISIS. The show was documentary style, and followed 2 or 3 American soldiers that volunteered to fight withthe Krds against ISIS in Iraq, then follow them into Syria.
    Another subject was a medic working with a doctors without borders style
    group. they would follow the combat with a maekshift hospital

    The volunteers were all vets who came back and got acclimated to that life,
    and were completely funded by themselves and family.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Thursday, June 16, 2022 13:10:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Moondog on Thu Jun 16 2022 05:28 am

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 11:00 pm

    Yeah, joining a foriegn war where no one speaks your language well, and n pre vious history of military training with aspirations of being an opera are
    no promises of success.

    the french foreign legion makes them learn french and they pretty much walk

    Makes sense. Their basic training cadre probably speaks several languages,
    and the time they spend in training (combat and daily operations) is much longer than most internal forces.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Saturday, June 18, 2022 17:26:27
    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:38 pm

    The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

    One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

    Agreed. There is a lot of scholarship inside of Russia's own military academies detailing that they do not believe they have the manpower capabilities to even make further significant advances, and given the Ukrainian army's resilience at defending and recapturing their territory, I think it's only a matter of time before Russia feels humiliated enough to justify nuclear solutions to their people problems.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to poindexter FORTRAN on Saturday, June 18, 2022 17:29:12
    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:01 am

    But at what cost to Ukraine, and the world? Ukraine's harvested wheat is dissapearing into Russia, and future harvests are in jeopardy.

    Even if Russia loses, Ukraine loses too.

    I'd love to see reparations, but I'm not optimistic.

    Certainly the West is getting nervous because it is increasingly looking like a total humiliation for Russia, and there isn't a path for Russia to have even a surface-level "victory" to bow out of this conflict. Ukraine is poised to retake Donbas and even eject Russia from Crimea. But before this happens, Russia will assuredly move towards a nuclear solution.

    I suspect that this plays out with a settlement, both with Ukraine and internally in Russia. President Putin's gamble has been catastrophic, and it is clear (and confirmed) that he has terminal cancer, so I think it's likely (given the Russia M.O. in situations like this) that he will be "relocated to a hospital," and some lieutenant (probably Medvedev, at this stage, given the incompetence of Shiogu's management as Min. of Defense) will be tapped to end this war, reconcile with the West, and figure out how to salvage some semblance of Russia's reputation.

    But it will be ugly.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Kaelon on Sunday, June 19, 2022 16:29:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sat Jun 18 2022 05:26 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:38 pm

    The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

    One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

    Agreed. There is a lot of scholarship inside of Russia's own military acade recapturing their territory, I think it's only a matter of time before Russi _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-


    Russia wants the Ukraine for its resources. I doubt they would resort to
    nukes on land they wish to occupy. Who would take a dump in th ecoffee pot because they want the coffee all to themselves? It's hard to "Russianize" a country if you give them a long lasting reminded why they shoudl hate you.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Moondog on Thursday, June 23, 2022 06:42:13
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sun Jun 19 2022 04:29 pm

    Russia wants the Ukraine for its resources. I doubt they would resort to nukes on land they wish to occupy. Who would take a dump in th ecoffee pot because they want the coffee all to themselves? It's hard to "Russianize" a country if you give them a long lasting reminded why they shoudl hate you.

    I agree, but Russia can ill-afford outright humiliation and Putin's greatest fear is a stable, thriving, Slavic Democracy on his borders. He already has that with the Baltic Republics (which, let's be clear, he needs to invade next), but Ukraine poses a huge geopolitical risk for Russia. If Ukraine outright defeats Russia and starts recapturing Crimea, Donbas, and making advances against Rostov, the use of nukes is a given, essentially to force capitulation.

    Russia has huge manpower problems right now, and its advances are costing it way too much to justify the continuation of this war. But by most measures, this war will last years if left to its own devices.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Kaelon on Thursday, June 23, 2022 21:27:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Kaelon to Moondog on Thu Jun 23 2022 06:42 am

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sun Jun 19 2022 04:29 pm

    Russia wants the Ukraine for its resources. I doubt they would resort to nukes on land they wish to occupy. Who would take a dump in th ecoffee p because they want the coffee all to themselves? It's hard to "Russianize country if you give them a long lasting reminded why they shoudl hate you

    I agree, but Russia can ill-afford outright humiliation and Putin's greatest
    huge geopolitical risk for Russia. If Ukraine outright defeats Russia and s

    Russia has huge manpower problems right now, and its advances are costing it _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-


    Putin will have the media spin the outcome to favor him no matter what. They don't have to save face. They'll make it up

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Friday, June 24, 2022 04:14:18
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Kaelon to Moondog on Thu Jun 23 2022 06:42 am

    _____

    I don't think a proper war will last many years. With the debt bubble about to explode
    in Europe and the bank about to stop purchasing more debt from countries that need to
    sell debt in order not to go bankrupt, I think that if Russia is not forced to give up
    soon enough, a number of European countries will got "crack".

    It is interesting to notice the media is barely covering the fact we are at the brink
    of a monetary apocalypse. This being Spain, the mood seems bright and party-like on
    the streets but once you get people's tongue lose with beer the mood is quite fatalistic. Industries that used to be employment powerhouses here are cutting down
    production of goods for which there is demand because there are no raw materials or,
    if they are available, they are too expensive to produce an end product at a price
    people may pay. This reflects in people getting sent to unemployment.

    Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of three months. That
    automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get
    the idea.

    Anybody who wants to obtain a military victory over us needs not seek victory. He only
    has to outlasts us.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Arelor on Friday, June 24, 2022 06:44:00
    Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

    Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of three months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of
    hen derivated food. You get the idea.

    Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's
    going to get ugly.


    ... Filters, the sublime elevation of the lifter and the filters
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to poindexter FORTRAN on Friday, June 24, 2022 13:07:13
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Fri Jun 24 2022 06:44 am

    Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

    Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of three months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get the idea.

    Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's going to get ugly.



    all the prices are going through the roof. fish , beef, chicken.
    soda, water, everything. not one thing is cheaper.

    build back better.

    atleast no mean tweets. and dont give me that 'it's happening all over the world' bullshit. when the usa sneezes, other countries catch a cold. we could have got it under control over here.
    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to poindexter FORTRAN on Friday, June 24, 2022 13:35:12
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Fri Jun 24 2022 06:44 am

    Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

    Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of thr months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get the idea.

    Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's going to get ugly.



    Hay is not an issue here by the moment, but only because this area is rich
    in grass and green stuff and we have had great weather for grass production this year. I have stockpiled hay for the whole year already and so far the
    deal has been fine.

    Feed is getting expensive as heck since it requires grain, and grain
    production last year was a bit disasterous. When you add inflation it gets
    very ugly. One of Spain's top snack vendors has announced they are cutting
    down production because the amount of affordable grain is very reduced. I am not nervous about the feed because my horses have hay and pasture grass for
    the main part, but sporting or work horses with feed-intensive diets are in
    for a bad year.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Saturday, June 25, 2022 12:23:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Jun 24 2022 01:35 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Fri Jun 24 2022 06:44 am

    Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

    Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of thr months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get the idea.

    Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's going to get ugly.



    Hay is not an issue here by the moment, but only because this area is rich in grass and green stuff and we have had great weather for grass production this year. I have stockpiled hay for the whole year already and so far the deal has been fine.

    Feed is getting expensive as heck since it requires grain, and grain production last year was a bit disasterous. When you add inflation it gets very ugly. One of Spain's top snack vendors has announced they are cutting down production because the amount of affordable grain is very reduced. I am not nervous about the feed because my horses have hay and pasture grass for the main part, but sporting or work horses with feed-intensive diets are in for a bad year.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    Hay is heavy. Big heavy things require fuel to move. Fuel is expensive.


    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Sunday, June 26, 2022 10:52:38
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Sat Jun 25 2022 12:23 pm

    Hay is heavy. Big heavy things require fuel to move. Fuel is expensive.


    Yes, of course, but here I am talking about moving the hay from a field in front of my hous, or
    the next one, or the next one. It is not like I am having the hay shipped from a different
    village or even a different road. ANd there is plenty of it everywhere this year.

    Problems come when the year comes dry so not much of it grows. Then you have to haul the hay
    from somewhere else or whatever and it is a pain in the ass XD

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Arelor on Tuesday, June 28, 2022 22:00:00
    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Sunday 26.06.22 - 10:52, Arelor wrote to Moondog:

    Problems come when the year comes dry so not much of it
    grows. Then you have to haul the hay from somewhere else or
    whatever and it is a pain in the ass XD

    I thought you would opt for the horsepowered version in those
    circumstances not the asspowered one!



    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ogg on Wednesday, June 29, 2022 04:31:48
    Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Ogg to Arelor on Tue Jun 28 2022 10:00 pm

    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Sunday 26.06.22 - 10:52, Arelor wrote to Moondog:

    Problems come when the year comes dry so not much of it
    grows. Then you have to haul the hay from somewhere else or
    whatever and it is a pain in the ass XD

    I thought you would opt for the horsepowered version in those
    circumstances not the asspowered one!




    Everytime I mention that to my darlings, they kiss me in the face but they show no
    sign of wanting to do the work.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Monday, July 04, 2022 11:58:59
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri Jun 24 2022 04:14 am

    I don't think a proper war will last many years. With the debt bubble about to explode in Europe and the bank about to stop purchasing more debt from countries that need to sell debt in order not to go bankrupt, I think that if Russia is not forced to give up soon enough, a number of European countries will got "crack".

    I agree that the economic picture is dire, but I don't think one can solely attribute it to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The global supply chain remains (irretrievably, according to many economists) broken on the other side of the Pandemic (which, let's face it, is not yet really over, despite everyone's best wishes). Governments printing money have created the second serious blow with radicalized inflation that is truly "cracking" the socioeconomic classes and pushing us well past the Gilded Age in terms of the gulf between haves-and-have-nots. Russia's invasion is partly responsible for a disruption in the global grain supply, but it has also galvanized both Europe and NATO as a whole by shaking it out of its delusion of a "post-war" world order.

    Anybody who wants to obtain a military victory over us needs not seek victory. He only has to outlasts us.

    Very true. There are deep systemic institutional problems in the European Union. But the speed with which France, Germany, and much of the EU's core countries have lept to move away from Russian gas and towards self-sustainability, not to mention radical investment in their own militaries, reflects a deep disquiet with Russia's invasion.

    Furthermore, Russia has demonstrated itself to being a paper tiger. Its military failures are so vast that any outright "outlasting" of Europe will come at tremendous cost and certainly lead to its general collapse. China, on the other hand, is quite another story.

    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Kaelon on Thursday, July 07, 2022 14:19:56
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon Jul 04 2022 11:58 am

    I agree that the economic picture is dire, but I don't think one can solely attribute it to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The global supply chain remains (irretrievably, according to many economists) broken on the other side of the Pandemic (which, let's face it, is not yet really over, despite everyone's best wishes). Governments printing money have created the second serious blow with radicalized inflation that is truly "cracking" the socioeconomic classes and pushing us well past the Gilded Age in terms of the gulf between haves-and-have-nots. Russia's invasion is partly responsible for a disruption in the global grain supply, but it has also galvanized both Europe and NATO as a whole by shaking it out of its delusion of a "post-war" world order.

    The quantitative easing that the goverment carried out back in 2020 when they decided that almost 100% of the population would become "public workers" has finally trickled down through all the asset classes to its final resting place in consumer goods. This is why I laughed when the FED were calling the inflation transitory as there was never anything transitory about it. They were lying to us all along because the alternative would have been an earlier recession which the Trump administaration would have tried to avoid at all costs. This Ukraine war is a convenient scapegoat for our economic woes.

    Very true. There are deep systemic institutional problems in the European Union. But the speed with which France, Germany, and much of the EU's core countries have lept to move away from Russian gas and towards self-sustainability, not to mention radical investment in their own militaries, reflects a deep disquiet with Russia's invasion.

    Furthermore, Russia has demonstrated itself to being a paper tiger. Its military failures are so vast that any outright "outlasting" of Europe will come at tremendous cost and certainly lead to its general collapse. China, on the other hand, is quite another story.

    Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.

    China are sitting pretty right now and have already made it known that they are sympathetic towards the Russians... The West is not in a good position seeing as almost all manufacturing and production comes from The East.

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ANDEDDU on Thursday, July 07, 2022 16:56:00
    costs. This Ukraine war is a convenient scapegoat for our economic woes.

    Indeed.

    Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.

    But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that
    things are only bad if you are American. :)


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Ummm, trouble with grammar have I? Yes!" --Yoda

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Thursday, July 07, 2022 23:03:30
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Thu Jul 07 2022 04:56 pm

    costs. This Ukraine war is a convenient scapegoat for our economic woes.

    Indeed.

    Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.

    But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that things are only bad if you are American. :)


    yeah they're morons. i remember one guy saying he takes a trip to america just to buy pants.

    and they were bragging about how great the euro was years ago.
    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Andeddu on Friday, July 08, 2022 10:32:30
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Andeddu to Kaelon on Thu Jul 07 2022 02:19 pm

    The quantitative easing that the goverment carried out back in 2020 when they decided that almost 100% of the population would become "public workers" has finally trickled down through all the asset classes to its final resting place in consumer goods. This is why I laughed when the FED were calling the inflation transitory as there was never anything transitory about it.

    Completely agree. It's amazing to me how the primary reason that history repeats itself is that people don't understand predictable cause and effect. The quantitative easing, the constant market growth at all costs, the ceaseless bailouts -- they're a repeat of the inflationary behaviors that largely provoked the two global world wars in the early 20th Century. I often tell other kids in the SaaS companies where I work as an executive that the dot-com bust informed us who lived through it what is about to come in software, and that every other middle-manager or executive who hasn't lived through or at least studied it, is full of shit if they predict what they think this is going to look like. Half of all software companies are already insolvent because they had no fundamental underlying go-to-market strategy that was reinforced by actual inherent value streams or sustainable recurring revenue models.



    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Andeddu on Friday, July 08, 2022 10:35:48
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Andeddu to Kaelon on Thu Jul 07 2022 02:19 pm

    Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.

    China are sitting pretty right now and have already made it known that they are sympathetic towards the Russians... The West is not in a good position seeing as almost all manufacturing and production comes from The East.

    It's horrifyingly naive. Look at the RUB exchange rate to the USD. Yes, it crashed during the weeks following the invasion, but it was mostly recovered by late April and now, it's higher than it has been in over five years!

    https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=RUB&to=USD
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dumas Walker on Friday, July 08, 2022 15:43:27
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Thu Jul 07 2022 04:56 pm

    But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that things are only bad if you are American. :)

    100% not true. The Eurozone is the area which is the most impacted by these political decisions. I am already paying around 2x more than normal for my gas and electricity bills and we have been warned that the prices are going to increase AGAIN this winter. You Americans are complainig about the cost of fuel however we are paying close to 2.40 USD per litre of diesel -- that is almost 11 USD per gallon. The cost of everything has increased substantially and a huge proportion of the population are going to be facing poverty later this year. This is a global economic issue so no one is shielded from this.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Friday, July 08, 2022 23:44:53
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Andeddu to Dumas Walker on Fri Jul 08 2022 03:43 pm

    gas and electricity bills and we have been warned that the prices are going to increase AGAIN this winter. You Americans are complainig about the cost of fuel however we are paying close to 2.40 USD per litre of diesel -- that is almost 11 USD per gallon. The cost of everything has increased substantially and a huge proportion of the population are going to be facing poverty later this year. This is a global economic issue so no one is shielded from this.

    americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.

    get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Saturday, July 09, 2022 07:18:31
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Andeddu to Dumas Walker on Fri Jul 08 2022 03:43 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Thu Jul 07 2022 04:56 pm

    But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that things are only bad if you are American. :)

    100% not true. The Eurozone is the area which is the most impacted by these political decisions. I am already paying around 2x more than normal for my g and electricity bills and we have been warned that the prices are going to increase AGAIN this winter. You Americans are complainig about the cost of f however we are paying close to 2.40 USD per litre of diesel -- that is almos 11 USD per gallon. The cost of everything has increased substantially and a huge proportion of the population are going to be facing poverty later this year. This is a global economic issue so no one is shielded from this.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!

    I am happy because Spain used to be a poor Fascist country, so we have plenty people with experience in how to deal with crap \o/

    We rural rednecks have been the lautghing stock of the country for decades, but fact is that during Francoism, when everybody in Spain was poor, the people who lived in rural areas were the people who didn't starve. Nobody lived well - it was a Fascist country - but if you had some square meters of land and a chimney, you had enough to grow vegetables, produce your own eggs, cook it
    all, and have spare heat for the house.


    It is ironic but I think the people who are going to suffer the most is the people who have been voting for "inflationist" politicians in Spain. Those are typicaly concentrated in cities, and are going to have to buy their lettuces at 10 eurs per Kg. by the look of it.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Kaelon on Saturday, July 09, 2022 15:03:44
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Kaelon to Andeddu on Fri Jul 08 2022 10:32 am

    Completely agree. It's amazing to me how the primary reason that history repeats itself is that people don't understand predictable cause and effect. The quantitative easing, the constant market growth at all costs, the ceaseless bailouts -- they're a repeat of the inflationary behaviors that largely provoked the two global world wars in the early 20th Century. I often tell other kids in the SaaS companies where I work as an executive that the dot-com bust informed us who lived through it what is about to come in software, and that every other middle-manager or executive who hasn't lived through or at least studied it, is full of shit if they predict what they think this is going to look like. Half of all software companies are already insolvent because they had no fundamental underlying go-to-market strategy that was reinforced by actual inherent value streams or sustainable recurring revenue models.

    Our leaders are at fault for repeatedly selling us out to China for the last 30 years. We've somehow gone from being an economic and manufactuing powerhouse to a hollowed out consumer based society with zero value. There is no viable plan to reduce public services or shrink goverment to a sustainable level and even during the Trump presidency I failed to see any tangible private sector growth.

    Every successive goverment appears to believe they can print the difference between tax revenue and outgoings year on year without creating problems down the line. Well they are evidently wrong and the horror show numbers along with the soon-to-be massive rise in unemployment proof in the pudding.

    The issue we now have is that the can has been kicked down the road for so long that there is no painless way to remedy the situation. I strongly belive that everything is going to come to a head later this year or next.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Kaelon on Saturday, July 09, 2022 15:11:08
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Kaelon to Andeddu on Fri Jul 08 2022 10:35 am

    It's horrifyingly naive. Look at the RUB exchange rate to the USD. Yes, it crashed during the weeks following the invasion, but it was mostly recovered by late April and now, it's higher than it has been in over five years!

    https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=RUB&to=USD

    I find it amusing that Western leaders were criticising Putin for refusing to sell energy for USDs when the US sanctioned oligarchs and Russian businesses by freezing their dollar denominated bank accounts. The lack of basic awareness or understanding from our ruling class is astounding.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to MRO on Saturday, July 09, 2022 15:13:26
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Fri Jul 08 2022 11:44 pm

    americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.

    get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.

    The cost of fuel will go a lot higher this winter and nothing will stop that. Biden is selling away your oil reserves to foreign nations which is great, that'll help keep prices down!

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Saturday, July 09, 2022 15:19:26
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Jul 09 2022 07:18 am

    I am happy because Spain used to be a poor Fascist country, so we have plenty people with experience in how to deal with crap \o/

    We rural rednecks have been the lautghing stock of the country for decades, but fact is that during Francoism, when everybody in Spain was poor, the people who lived in rural areas were the people who didn't starve. Nobody lived well - it was a Fascist country - but if you had some square meters of land and a chimney, you had enough to grow vegetables, produce your own eggs, cook it
    all, and have spare heat for the house.


    It is ironic but I think the people who are going to suffer the most is the people who have been voting for "inflationist" politicians in Spain. Those are typicaly concentrated in cities, and are going to have to buy their lettuces at 10 eurs per Kg. by the look of it.

    Well it looks like Spain will go back to those days again for at least the next 5-6 years. With the cost of fertilizer rising and historically low crop yields in conjunction with the war which looks likely to spread through Europe, now would be to grow your own food supply. Hard times are coming and it'll be the pampered city folk who are going to struggle the most. I am sadly one of those people in possession with little to no outdoor survival skills.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Saturday, July 09, 2022 15:33:18
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Andeddu to MRO on Sat Jul 09 2022 03:13 pm

    americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.

    get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.

    The cost of fuel will go a lot higher this winter and nothing will stop that. Biden is selling away your oil reserves to foreign nations which is great, that'll help keep prices down!

    well biden is in bed with china so that's why.

    honestly the usa has plenty of oil. i worked in the oil industry for almost 2 decades. if they are going to drill we will be fine.

    with covid many companies sold out to their competitors so it might be a struggle to meet demands. they will do it, though.
    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Andeddu on Sunday, July 10, 2022 08:41:06
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Andeddu to Kaelon on Sat Jul 09 2022 03:03 pm

    Our leaders are at fault for repeatedly selling us out to China for the last 30 years. We've somehow gone from being an economic and manufactuing powerhouse to a hollowed out consumer based society with zero value. There is no viable plan to reduce public services or shrink goverment to a sustainable level and even during the Trump presidency I failed to see any tangible private sector growth.

    I agree, and if you study root causes of our economic inter-dependence and transformation into a consumer-only society, the liability rests with the rise of corporate syndicates in the early 1970s after the demise of the Nixon Administration. All of the industrial and commercial infrastructure in the 1980s and 1990s, while largely responsible for dramatic technological innovation, has been solely focused on the consumer experience and hardly on the creation of systemic and inherent value streams.

    Every successive goverment appears to believe they can print the difference between tax revenue and outgoings year on year without creating problems down the line. Well they are evidently wrong and the horror show numbers along with the soon-to-be massive rise in unemployment proof in the pudding.

    Once again, I agree. This short-term thinking is inherent to hyper-capitalist planning which emphasizes quarterly results and monthly incrementalism, so as to maximize shareholder value, but results in extremely unstable businesses and countless bubbles. Considering the example I gave in software, so much private equity and venture capital behavior has been designed to build these unsustainable capitalized experiments that return "3-5x" of their value to PEs over a 24-36 month period, that when they finally enter real market conditions and start stumbling with longer-term institutional investors, they become ripe targets for acquisition and dismemberment. Richard Gere's character from "Pretty Woman" must be sitting pretty with his business model. ;)

    The issue we now have is that the can has been kicked down the road for so long that there is no painless way to remedy the situation. I strongly belive that everything is going to come to a head later this year or next.

    I agree. At least in software, the entire SaaS model is bloated and the sheer number of entrants in this space far exceeds the demand or business justification for them. Much like cryptocurrency / NFTs, and the craze surrounding massive returns over short periods of time, software itself has become a speculative asset with very little real value underneath it all. This is all coming to a head.

    Final note - I am in workforce management as an industry, and late last year we started seeing huge shifts that have been building for over a decade, but are unprecedented in their scale. The Pandemic, the Supply Chain Woes, the Energy Crisis, and even the Wars and geopolitical re-alignment that accompany them -- these are all symptomatic and/or aggrivating factors of a much needed realignment in our entire economic system. And its collapse will be far worse than anything anyone has ever seen, but it really didn't have to be this way. Now, however, it's too late - and all of our institutions, from our government to our financial markets, will be liquidated in this process.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Andeddu on Sunday, July 10, 2022 08:45:01
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Andeddu to Kaelon on Sat Jul 09 2022 03:11 pm

    I find it amusing that Western leaders were criticising Putin for refusing to sell energy for USDs when the US sanctioned oligarchs and Russian businesses by freezing their dollar denominated bank accounts. The lack of basic awareness or understanding from our ruling class is astounding.

    The arrogance is astounding, especially when humbler and well-informed economists were pointing out really basic facts that most second-year undergraduate college students would understand: Russia is isolated and silo'ed from the entire global economic system, and despite the collaspe of the Soviet Union and the following almost-gleeful pillaging of Russia as a country by the West, the Russian Elites skillfully manipulated foreign markets to borrow money ceaselessly on extremely favorable terms, but never integrated institutional safeguards, controls, or many of the other systems that ensure Russia would become integrated. The end result: Russia is its own entity, and very little that the globe does to force Russia economically will have much bearing, considering just how isolated Russia is.

    China, on the other hand, is a very different story. China gambled big on essentially joining the U.S.-led economic world order -- a fact reinforced by the countless times that China has invested in, and bailed out, the United States as the titular leader of this order -- while concurrently preserving its authoritarian political systems. It has really worked to China's benefit, considering that by and large, China's greatest asset - its population - is also it's largest liability. China would have to contend with five distinctively hostile societies that are eager to tear each other to shreds and resolve centuries of disputes that would fracture the country, if it ever adopted anything resembling a consensus-driven liberal political system.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to MRO on Sunday, July 10, 2022 17:59:00
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Sat Jul 09 2022 03:33 pm

    well biden is in bed with china so that's why.

    honestly the usa has plenty of oil. i worked in the oil industry for almost 2 decades. if they are going to drill we will be fine.

    with covid many companies sold out to their competitors so it might be a struggle to meet demands. they will do it, though.

    There may be plenty oil but drilling for it goes against Biden's Green New Deal which is the hill he is willing to die on. He has stated several times that there will be no more drilling land or sea. None of that is very clever, if you ask me, because you need a lot of refined oil and you need it fast.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Sunday, July 10, 2022 16:20:09
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Andeddu to MRO on Sun Jul 10 2022 05:59 pm


    There may be plenty oil but drilling for it goes against Biden's Green New Deal which is the hill he is willing to die on. He has stated several times that there will be no more drilling land or sea. None of that is very clever, if you ask me, because you need a lot of refined oil and you need it fast.

    he says one thing but does another. i dont think they've ever stopped drilling because these companies hold vouchers. they stocked up on them.
    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ANDEDDU on Sunday, July 10, 2022 14:33:00
    100% not true. The Eurozone is the area which is the most impacted by these political decisions. I am already paying around 2x more than normal for my gas
    and electricity bills and we have been warned that the prices are going to increase AGAIN this winter. You Americans are complainig about the cost of fue
    however we are paying close to 2.40 USD per litre of diesel -- that is almost 11 USD per gallon. The cost of everything has increased substantially and a huge proportion of the population are going to be facing poverty later this year. This is a global economic issue so no one is shielded from this.

    I will agree that it is global and no one is shielded.

    That said, fuel has always been more expensive in Europe (and Canada, for
    that matter). What percentage increase is the 2.40 USD for diesel? Here, gasoline is over 4.00/gal USD, while diesel is close to 6.00/gal USD. Not
    sure about diesel, but that is a 2X+ increase for gasoline here. In other states, it is a whole dollar or more per gallon now beyond what it is here.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Did you expect mere proof to sway my opinion?

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ANDEDDU on Sunday, July 10, 2022 14:44:00
    americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.

    get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.

    The cost of fuel will go a lot higher this winter and nothing will stop that. Biden is selling away your oil reserves to foreign nations which is great, that'll help keep prices down!

    Yes, he did that after telling us it was to make our prices go down.

    He is asleep at the wheel and has no idea what is going on.


    * SLMR 2.1a * STICK \'stik\ n. 1: A somewhat nonfunctional boomerang.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Sunday, July 10, 2022 20:10:25
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Sun Jul 10 2022 02:44 pm

    americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.

    get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.

    The cost of fuel will go a lot higher this winter and nothing will stop that. Biden is selling away your oil reserves to foreign nations which is great, that'll help keep prices down!

    Yes, he did that after telling us it was to make our prices go down.

    He is asleep at the wheel and has no idea what is going on.



    maybe china has some videos of hunter biden killing prostitutes.
    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Monday, July 11, 2022 17:04:00
    Yes, he did that after telling us it was to make our prices go down.

    He is asleep at the wheel and has no idea what is going on.


    maybe china has some videos of hunter biden killing prostitutes.

    Here is one of him weighing his crack. Why would anyone videotape that?

    https://youtu.be/Rj9V-XjCol8


    * SLMR 2.1a * Software Independent: Won't work with ANY software.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Monday, July 11, 2022 22:07:28
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Mon Jul 11 2022 05:04 pm

    Yes, he did that after telling us it was to make our prices go down.

    He is asleep at the wheel and has no idea what is going on.


    maybe china has some videos of hunter biden killing prostitutes.

    Here is one of him weighing his crack. Why would anyone videotape that?

    https://youtu.be/Rj9V-XjCol8


    he's a biden. he's fucking whacko. he's recording himself smoking crack in a float tank and playing with his dick too.
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 02:47:01
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Andeddu to Arelor on Sat Jul 09 2022 03:19 pm

    Well it looks like Spain will go back to those days again for at least the next
    5-6 years. With the cost of fertilizer rising and historically low crop yields
    in conjunction with the war which looks likely to spread through Europe, now would be to grow your own food supply. Hard times are coming and it'll be the
    pampered city folk who are going to struggle the most. I am sadly one of those
    people in possession with little to no outdoor survival skills.


    I remember driving by a poor village with the boss when he told me he had been born
    there. The village had a vibe of ruin and poverty. He started talking about the old
    days in which nobody could afford transport and getting on a donkey on a trip out of
    the valley was an adventure.

    This was some years ago but I have been thinking of that conversation a lot as of
    late, because I see it happening again.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 02:56:04
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Kaelon to Andeddu on Sun Jul 10 2022 08:41 am

    between tax revenue and outgoings year on year without creating problems down the line. Well they are evidently wrong and the horror show numbers along with the soon-to-be massive rise in unemployment proof in the pudding.

    Once again, I agree. This short-term thinking is inherent to hyper-capitalist plann
    Considering the example I gave in software, so much private equity and venture cap

    I always hear Capitalism blamed for any politics involving growth at any cost, but
    when I talk to Keynesians I always think the concept of shorterm growth at any cost
    is a Keynesian one.

    I had a lot of this stuff in 2008-2009. People was blaming Capitalism for causing the
    crisis with growth at any cost politics. Then you talked to Keynesians and their
    solution for the crisis was to print lots of money and give it away to the population
    so they could keep on spending and spending in order to keep the consumist wheel
    turning.


    --
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    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 06:58:42
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Tue Jul 12 2022 02:56 am

    I always hear Capitalism blamed for any politics involving growth at any cost, but when I talk to Keynesians I always think the concept of shorterm growth at any cost
    is a Keynesian one.

    I don't disagree with you. To me, there's nothing wrong with capitalism - free and open markets have done more to improve the human condition than any managed system ever has in the history of civilization. That said, the complete and unbridled / unregulated market economy has had significant costs associated with it - chief of which has been rampant speculation in unsecured assets (such as cryptocurrencies), unmitigated disasters in the private equity and venture capital pre-IPO spaces leading to colossal loss in shareholder value over time, and now, most recently, the uncontrolled essential commodities market leading to a supply chain crisis.

    Capitalism with safeguards and proper institutional regulation is necessary in order to build a long-term vision that ensures that vulnerable investors are protected from exploitation, and that companies have to demonstrate their actual value so that informed investors can be - well, informed! Private Equity, especially in technology, is largely responsible for obfuscating real value and there is now a reckoning where more than half of all technology companies in the world are fundamentally insolvent.

    It is long overdue, IMO.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Kaelon on Monday, July 11, 2022 07:30:00
    Kaelon wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Our leaders are at fault for repeatedly selling us out to China for the last 30 years. We've somehow gone from being an economic and manufactuing powerhouse to a hollowed out consumer based society with zero value. There is no viable plan to reduce public services or shrink goverment to a sustainable level and even during the Trump presidency I failed to see any tangible private sector growth.

    I agree, and if you study root causes of our economic inter-dependence
    and transformation into a consumer-only society

    I spent the afternoon in Silicon Valley, went shopping at an outdoor mall I used to go to when I was a kid. We're in one of the most overpriced real estate markets, and it felt like the number of retail shops had dwindled, to be replaced by overpriced food and real estate offices. I suppose you can't afford retail any more - Amazon will eat your lunch if you're selling commodity goods and local specialty retail can't pay the exorbitant rent.

    It's a shame.

    Pay a ton of money to move into an area and lose the charm the area had in
    the process.




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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 16:36:00
    I had a lot of this stuff in 2008-2009. People was blaming Capitalism for caus
    g the
    crisis with growth at any cost politics. Then you talked to Keynesians and the
    solution for the crisis was to print lots of money and give it away to the pop
    ation
    so they could keep on spending and spending in order to keep the consumist whe
    turning.

    Which leads to hyperinflation, of course.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Perhaps this situation requires a more Klingon response.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Kaelon on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 21:04:35
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Kaelon to Andeddu on Sun Jul 10 2022 08:41 am

    I agree, and if you study root causes of our economic inter-dependence and transformation into a consumer-only society, the liability rests with the rise of corporate syndicates in the early 1970s after the demise of the Nixon Administration. All of the industrial and commercial infrastructure in the 1980s and 1990s, while largely responsible for dramatic technological innovation, has been solely focused on the consumer experience and hardly on the creation of systemic and inherent value streams.

    Absolutely. We no longer have capitalism, we have corporatism otherwise known as late-stage capitalism, which is essentially globalism. Governments are monoliths that pry into every aspect of our lives compared to half a century ago when they were serving as mere administrators. The Western economy is built on war and the dominance Middle-Eastern oil. Once the USD loses its position as the World Reserve Currency, which will no doubt happen very soon, the USA is finished.

    Once again, I agree. This short-term thinking is inherent to hyper-capitalist planning which emphasizes quarterly results and monthly incrementalism, so as to maximize shareholder value, but results in extremely unstable businesses and countless bubbles. Considering the example I gave in software, so much private equity and venture capital behavior has been designed to build these unsustainable capitalized experiments that return "3-5x" of their value to PEs over a 24-36 month period, that when they finally enter real market conditions and start stumbling with longer-term institutional investors, they become ripe targets for acquisition and dismemberment. Richard Gere's character from "Pretty Woman" must be sitting pretty with his business model. ;)

    Yep. We will see many fewer start-ups going forward now too as interest rates have to continually increase to combat inflation.

    Final note - I am in workforce management as an industry, and late last year we started seeing huge shifts that have been building for over a decade, but are unprecedented in their scale. The Pandemic, the Supply Chain Woes, the Energy Crisis, and even the Wars and geopolitical re-alignment that accompany them -- these are all symptomatic and/or aggrivating factors of a much needed realignment in our entire economic system. And its collapse will be far worse than anything anyone has ever seen, but it really didn't have to be this way. Now, however, it's too late - and all of our institutions, from our government to our financial markets, will be liquidated in this process.

    We are going to see a lot less capital going around resulting in another credit crunch. The cost of living crisis is going to wipe away the remaining small and medium sized businesses as the public are no longer going be in possession of expendable income with which to visit resturaunts, drink in bars, go on holiday and purchase luxury items. Like I mentioned before... fuel in the UK is has risen by around 80% since last year and the cost of energy has risen 2x with it being purported to increase 3x by this winter. Small and medium sized businesses are NOT going to see the other side of this and will be forced to let their workforce go resulting in mass unemployment.

    Carbon Net Zero is a massive problem too and one which will seal the deal on our path to destruction.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Kaelon on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 21:22:48
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Kaelon to Andeddu on Sun Jul 10 2022 08:45 am

    The arrogance is astounding, especially when humbler and well-informed economists were pointing out really basic facts that most second-year undergraduate college students would understand: Russia is isolated and silo'ed from the entire global economic system, and despite the collaspe of the Soviet Union and the following almost-gleeful pillaging of Russia as a country by the West, the Russian Elites skillfully manipulated foreign markets to borrow money ceaselessly on extremely favorable terms, but never integrated institutional safeguards, controls, or many of the other systems that ensure Russia would become integrated. The end result: Russia is its own entity, and very little that the globe does to force Russia economically will have much bearing, considering just how isolated Russia is.

    I agree. The Russian Elites have been maneuvered themselves into a strong position and have shielded their public from the extreme hardship that will face The West's population. Their Elites are playing 4D chess while our Elites are playing Blackjack. We are getting destroyed every single day and the media can do nothing but lie and cheerlead us into what appears will become WWIII.

    China, on the other hand, is a very different story. China gambled big on essentially joining the U.S.-led economic world order -- a fact reinforced by the countless times that China has invested in, and bailed out, the United States as the titular leader of this order -- while concurrently preserving its authoritarian political systems. It has really worked to China's benefit, considering that by and large, China's greatest asset - its population - is also it's largest liability. China would have to contend with five distinctively hostile societies that are eager to tear each other to shreds and resolve centuries of disputes that would fracture the country, if it ever adopted anything resembling a consensus-driven liberal political system.

    The Chinese are in a far better position than any Western nation as they hold the master-production for all our goods. Now that they are seriously reducing their exports to the West, we will soon experince shortages and price hikes. All Xi Jinping has to do now is unite his population by creating a new middle-class, much like the USA did during the 50s-60s, in order to secure their position as the premier world superpower. They will soon have no use for the USA's soon-to-be worthless currency which has been effectively printed into oblivion.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to MRO on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 21:27:36
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Sun Jul 10 2022 04:20 pm

    he says one thing but does another. i dont think they've ever stopped drilling because these companies hold vouchers. they stocked up on them.

    I hope you're right. I would beg-to-differ though as I cannot see costs going down. The economy has tanked too much and there is far too many infastructural, geo-political and economical problems to keep the nation in a tolerable state.

    I will, of course, say the same for my own country as our elites are also recklessly destructive and breathtakingly incompetent.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dumas Walker on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 21:34:57
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Sun Jul 10 2022 02:33 pm

    I will agree that it is global and no one is shielded.

    That said, fuel has always been more expensive in Europe (and Canada, for that matter). What percentage increase is the 2.40 USD for diesel? Here, gasoline is over 4.00/gal USD, while diesel is close to 6.00/gal USD. Not sure about diesel, but that is a 2X+ increase for gasoline here. In other states, it is a whole dollar or more per gallon now beyond what it is here.

    You are right. The cost of fuel in Europe has historically been much higher than in the USA. That is why it is rare the see any V8 gas-guzzlers on the roads. Diesel has risen by around 42% since January '22 which includes a minor cut to fuel duty.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 21:43:39
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Tue Jul 12 2022 02:47 am

    I remember driving by a poor village with the boss when he told me he had been born there. The village had a vibe of ruin and poverty. He started
    talking about the old days in which nobody could afford transport and getting >on a donkey on a trip out of the valley was an adventure.

    This was some years ago but I have been thinking of that conversation a lot as >of late, because I see it happening again.

    I have been adamant over the last decade that we are living in the death throes of our civilisation. I am very disappointed that I appear to have been vindicated as being wrong would have brought me much joy. We are defnitely going back to the hard times that you speak of.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 22:25:55
    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: Andeddu to MRO on Tue Jul 12 2022 09:27 pm

    Re: Re: Great Replacement The
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Sun Jul 10 2022 04:20 pm

    he says one thing but does another. i dont think they've ever stopped drilling because these companies hold vouchers. they stocked up on them.

    I hope you're right. I would beg-to-differ though as I cannot see costs going down. The economy has tanked too much and there is far too many infastructural, geo-political and economical problems to keep the nation in a tolerable state.

    I will, of course, say the same for my own country as our elites are also recklessly destructive and breathtakingly incompetent.

    everything balances out and goes in cycles. so even if something new gets thrown into the mix, eventually the same old shit will erode it down and it will go back to how it was.
    ---
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 08:27:00
    Kaelon wrote to Arelor <=-

    Capitalism with safeguards and proper institutional regulation is necessary in order to build a long-term vision that ensures that vulnerable investors are protected from exploitation, and that
    companies have to demonstrate their actual value so that informed investors can be - well, informed! Private Equity, especially in technology, is largely responsible for obfuscating real value and there
    is now a reckoning where more than half of all technology companies in
    the world are fundamentally insolvent.

    This pile of nonsence is what is called "soft socialism".

    "Capitalism is great, but it needs to be controlled". "Controlled" meaning run by "smart" people, usually the state, which only has people who think that they are smart.

    The lame excuses of "we need to 'protect' people from exploitation" is the normal cry. In Capitalism there are risks - that's just part of life. And having the gov't "protect" people from their mistakes is just keeping them like children - and controlling them.


    ... What are you looking down here for? Read the message.
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    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Andeddu on Friday, July 15, 2022 21:04:36
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Andeddu to Arelor on Tue Jul 12 2022 09:43 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Tue Jul 12 2022 02:47 am

    I remember driving by a poor village with the boss when he told me he had been born there. The village had a vibe of ruin and poverty. He started
    talking about the old days in which nobody could afford transport and getting >on a donkey on a trip out of the valley was an adventure.

    This was some years ago but I have been thinking of that conversation a lot as >of late, because I see it happening again.

    I have been adamant over the last decade that we are living in the death throes of our civilisation. I am very disappointed that I appear to have been vindicated as being wrong would have brought me much joy. We are defnitely going back to the hard times that you speak of.

    I've thought that for a while too, and often I've wondered whether I should think that or not. But the further that time goes on, the clearer and clearer the truth becomes, we are in a severe decline and its not just me getting older.

    I think the biggest problem is lack of revolutionary though. We are stuck with old ideas, with ideology, thinking that ideology (Whether it is Capitalism or Socialism) will get us out.

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Friday, July 15, 2022 21:16:03
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Wed Jul 13 2022 08:27 am

    Capitalism with safeguards and proper institutional regulation is necessary in order to build a long-term vision that ensures that vulnerable investors are protected from exploitation, and that companies have to demonstrate their actual value so that informed investors can be - well, informed! Private Equity, especially in technology, is largely responsible for obfuscating real value and there is now a reckoning where more than half of all technology companies in the world are fundamentally insolvent.

    This pile of nonsence is what is called "soft socialism".

    "Capitalism is great, but it needs to be controlled". "Controlled" meaning run by "smart" people, usually the state, which only has people who think that they are smart.

    The lame excuses of "we need to 'protect' people from exploitation" is the normal cry. In Capitalism there are risks - that's just part of life. And having the gov't "protect" people from their mistakes is just keeping them like children - and controlling them.

    That is not socailism. It is not near socialism.

    Capitalism run amok leads to exploitation and crisis because the particular forces that drive it have no countervailing force. We need to stop the excesses, prevent pathological situations such as monopolies from forming, and to have other means to keep society in check and regulate activity.

    We live in a democracy, and without regulation a small minority of Capitalists could, would, have undue influence on society.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Friday, July 15, 2022 15:17:25
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Fri Jul 15 2022 09:04 pm

    I've thought that for a while too, and often I've wondered whether I should think that or not. But the further that time goes on, the clearer and clearer the truth becomes, we are in a severe decline and its not just me getting older.

    I think the biggest problem is lack of revolutionary though. We are stuck with old ideas, with ideology, thinking that ideology (Whether it is Capitalism or Socialism) will get us out.

    Although the ordinary man may lack revolutionary thought, I believe there is a revolution going on and we are moving in a very specific direction. It would be hard for me to belive that there is NO PLAN once our civilation collapses... there will always be a kind of contingency plan.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Andeddu on Saturday, July 16, 2022 14:38:15
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Andeddu to Boraxman on Fri Jul 15 2022 03:17 pm

    I think the biggest problem is lack of revolutionary though. We are stuck with old ideas, with ideology, thinking that ideology (Whether it is Capitalism or Socialism) will get us out.

    Although the ordinary man may lack revolutionary thought, I believe there is a revolution going on and we are moving in a very specific direction. It would be hard for me to belive that there is NO PLAN once our civilation collapses... there will always be a kind of contingency plan.


    Revolution doesn't mean revolutionary thought. We could have a "revolution" where Marxist-Communists take over. That is old thought.

    The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we think that we have to choose between the two. We can't imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is just the same old system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the SJW's, but that really is just rehashed Christian guilt.

    We're looking at all these problems, and can't think of any new direction to go in to solve them. We cant imagine anything outside the "Capitalism/Communism" dichotomy, so we are limited by that. We can't imagine anything oustide of "Liberalism/Conservatism", so we are limited by that.

    We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't coming.

    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to poindexter FORTRAN on Saturday, July 16, 2022 09:07:32
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Mon Jul 11 2022 07:30 am

    I spent the afternoon in Silicon Valley, went shopping at an outdoor mall I used to go to when I was a kid. We're in one of the most overpriced real estate markets, and it felt like the number of retail shops had dwindled, to be replaced by overpriced food and real estate offices. I suppose you can't afford retail any more - Amazon will eat your lunch if you're selling commodity goods and local specialty retail can't pay the exorbitant rent.

    It's a shame.

    I completely agree with you. It's totally heart-breaking. But, practically speaking, it is now also a matter of life-or-death for many families and our very cities. It is entirely unaffordable - now on the other side of the pandemic - to live in or near any major metropolitan areas. At first, the suburbs (where I live) saw property values soar by 70% year-over-year as people fled the cities and went there to escape congestion amidst the viral surges.

    Now, as the Pandemic is being better managed and the majority of Americans are vaccinated, people are returning into the cities. But we've got a passive catch-22. Mortgage rates skyrocketted in part due to inflation (9.1% right now is insane territory - people just do not understand how close to a total economic collapse we are) - and the rising property values extended to the cities as commercial real estate collapsed during the pandemic and owners needed to liquidate holdings as all surrounding businesses (specifically, the retail and restaurant sectors that were designed primarily to support commuters since the post-war period) failed.

    Net-result: in Boston, alone, rent is up 28% year-over-year, and in Manhattan, rent has soared to an average rate of $5,000/mo. for your average renter. This is grossly unaffordable, especially since minimum wages haven't kept up with inflation for over 30 years (if they would have, the pre-pandemic minimum wage would have been $33/hour, and now the absurdity of arguing for $15/hour is still less than half of what average people need). As inflation catches up, and the city economic sectors collapse, we are going to see vast poverty across the country and the idea of home-ownership will end for all but those of us who already own outright.

    The death of small businesses isn't the cause - it's the symptom. Of an unsustainable market that globalized and created pathways of efficiencies with just-in-time delivery and absolutely zero margin for failure. Well, it's all failed, and eventually, the cost of all goods will start to exceed the public's availability to pay for even the bare necessities.

    You already see this in the price of food, all up between 9-30% for basic essentials: fruits, bread, milk.

    We're all screwed, guys.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Saturday, July 16, 2022 09:18:02
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Wed Jul 13 2022 08:27 am

    This pile of nonsence is what is called "soft socialism".

    "Capitalism is great, but it needs to be controlled". "Controlled" meaning run by "smart" people, usually the state, which only has people who think that they are smart.

    The lame excuses of "we need to 'protect' people from exploitation" is the normal cry. In Capitalism there are risks - that's just part of life. And having the gov't "protect" people from their mistakes is just keeping them like children - and controlling them.

    Frankly, this is bullshit. Our economic system has had numerous safeguards for institutions and corporations - such as the "bailouts" that the government (i.e., taxpayers) ensured that big banks would receive and the even large-scale industrial corporations would receive, when their risky models folded in 2008-2009. In a true Capitalist system, they should have been all allowed to fail. Where are your cries for the lame excuses of banks and manufacturing in 2008-2009, or for airlines, commodities traders, and real estate speculators now in the 2020-2022 Pandemic period?

    Let them all fail. And then we can talk about the "lame excuses" of the very valid truth that corporations have co-opted our political institutions. This isn't Capitalism, Dr. What. This is syndicate corporatism. And that's not what entrepreneurial people and innovators signed up for.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Andeddu on Saturday, July 16, 2022 18:31:20
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Andeddu to Kaelon on Tue Jul 12 2022 09:04 pm

    Absolutely. We no longer have capitalism, we have corporatism otherwise known as late-stage capitalism, which is essentially globalism. Governments are monoliths that pry into every aspect of our lives compared to half a century ago when they were serving as mere administrators. The Western economy is built on war and the dominance Middle-Eastern oil. Once the USD loses its position as the World Reserve Currency, which will no doubt happen very soon, the USA is finished.

    It's hard to imagine another currency being preferred over the United States Dollar, but we're going to find out soon enough. The EUR probably has another 20-30% more to decline -- parity with the USD was just a start. The RUB resiliance is a local silo'ed matter, and all Asian currencies are a total disaster right now.

    Yep. We will see many fewer start-ups going forward now too as interest rates have to continually increase to combat inflation.

    Arguably, many of these startups shouldn't have had access to the capital that they were able to cheaply get. Again, the short-term "syndicate corporatism," or "late-stage capitalism," as you rightly describe it, has painted myopic portraits of financial worthiness for what are, in essence, barely seed-stage proof-of-concept companies. They aren't even product companies (genuine startup material), let alone customer-centric corporations (those that are truly worthy of the public's risk-taking on the open markets). Fortunately, we're seeing a total liquidation of the bullshit SaaS industry. More than half of these companies are insolvent, and this year so far, 357 of them have laid off over 53,000 employees.

    https://layoffs.fyi

    We are going to see a lot less capital going around resulting in another credit crunch. The cost of living crisis is going to wipe away the remaining small and medium sized businesses as the public are no longer going be in possession of expendable income with which to visit resturaunts, drink in bars, go on holiday and purchase luxury items. Like I mentioned before... fuel in the UK is has risen by around 80% since last year and the cost of energy has risen 2x with it being purported to increase 3x by this winter. Small and medium sized businesses are NOT going to see the other side of this and will be forced to let their workforce go resulting in mass unemployment.

    Completely agree.

    Carbon Net Zero is a massive problem too and one which will seal the deal on our path to destruction.

    Don't even get me started on the absurdity of trying to create economic currency models to stimulate voluntary restrictions on carbon emissions. Scientifically, it's too late for humans to impact the planetary trajectory (we would have had to make drastic changes to our agricultural and early-industrial model in the 1820s, for crying out loud); but, more broadly, Economically, this sort of faux-currency and exchange of "carbon credits" is creating economies that willingly self-sabotage any form of supply-and-demand and reward cheating-countries with unfair advantages.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Andeddu on Saturday, July 16, 2022 18:43:40
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Andeddu to Kaelon on Tue Jul 12 2022 09:22 pm

    I agree. The Russian Elites have been maneuvered themselves into a strong position and have shielded their public from the extreme hardship that will face The West's population. Their Elites are playing 4D chess while our Elites are playing Blackjack. We are getting destroyed every single day and the media can do nothing but lie and cheerlead us into what appears will become WWIII.

    Yes. There is no doubt that heads of militaries across the NATO alliance have been predicting the eruption of a Third World War. For those of us actually in Cyber Defense, we feel that WW3 is already upon us because all of the cyber forces across the alliance are engaged with Russia and China. Geopolitically, it's inevitable - especially with the blockading of Kaliningrad by the European Union - that Russia will move against the Baltic Republics to re-establish a supply corridor, or worse, just subjugate them. Article 5 will surely be triggered, and Putin would love nothing more to see Article 5 fall apart, at least, before he perishes. (Which, if you read the intelligence leaks, could be within months.)

    The Chinese are in a far better position than any Western nation as they hold the master-production for all our goods. Now that they are seriously reducing their exports to the West, we will soon experince shortages and price hikes. All Xi Jinping has to do now is unite his population by creating a new middle-class, much like the USA did during the 50s-60s, in order to secure their position as the premier world superpower. They will soon have no use for the USA's soon-to-be worthless currency which has been effectively printed into oblivion.

    I am not sure that I actually agree that China is a far better position than any Western nation right now. Yes, economically, they've centered themselves as the world's producer. But geopolitically, they are trapped. More than 80% of Chinese territory is actually largely unusable and unsuitable terrain, and given the distribution of this terrain and its vast population, it is largely constrained and, in essence, an island. And, let's not forget, it is really at least five distinct cultures with visceral hatred towards one another.

    As the global economy collapses over the next 6-12 months, China will be forced to confront its reckoning on the disasterous socioeconomic mismanagement of its population. We're not even talking about the predictable consequences of the One Child Policy - which has resulted in a material disproportion of men over women, causing everything from forced marriages and mass-rapes in the countryside to modern chattel slavery of women in the cities - but broader population control measures during this Pandemic. That latter approach has resulted in a collapse of its metropolitan economies, and the loss of global trading prestige. No one wants to attempt to enter Chinese exchanges now, not even Hong Kong (for obvious reasons). What a failure.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Boraxman on Sunday, July 17, 2022 14:12:00
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    That is not socailism. It is not near socialism.

    Which is the standard response from the socialists.

    "No, this isn't socialism. It's just gov't control over the markets."

    Capitalism run amok leads to exploitation and crisis because the particular forces that drive it have no countervailing force.

    Right out of Marx. Did you quote that directly, or just paraphrase?


    ... Women prefer the simple things in life...MEN!
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Sunday, July 17, 2022 14:12:00
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    system, they should have been all allowed to fail. Where are your
    cries for the lame excuses of banks and manufacturing in 2008-2009, or
    for airlines, commodities traders, and real estate speculators now in
    the 2020-2022 Pandemic period?

    You should actually **read** my messages before replying to them.


    ... Please save the above drivel for future reference!
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Sunday, July 17, 2022 17:17:33
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sat Jul 16 2022 02:38 pm

    Revolution doesn't mean revolutionary thought. We could have a "revolution" where Marxist-Communists take over. That is old thought.

    The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we think that we have to choose between the two. We can't imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is just the same old system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the SJW's, but that really is just rehashed Christian guilt.

    We're looking at all these problems, and can't think of any new direction to go in to solve them. We cant imagine anything outside the "Capitalism/Communism" dichotomy, so we are limited by that. We can't imagine anything oustide of "Liberalism/Conservatism", so we are limited by that.

    We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't coming.

    I don't disagree but I see Capitalism/Communism as two sides of the same system with us presently in the phase where Eastern Communism merges with Western Capitalism which will be destined to collapse into the new world system.

    There will always be the haves and the have nots, elites and non-elites. This will occur in all systems old or new which have been authorised for our use.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Kaelon on Sunday, July 17, 2022 17:39:55
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Kaelon to Andeddu on Sat Jul 16 2022 06:31 pm

    It's hard to imagine another currency being preferred over the United States Dollar, but we're going to find out soon enough. The EUR probably has another 20-30% more to decline -- parity with the USD was just a start. The RUB resiliance is a local silo'ed matter, and all Asian currencies are a total disaster right now.

    Arguably, many of these startups shouldn't have had access to the capital that they were able to cheaply get. Again, the short-term "syndicate corporatism," or "late-stage capitalism," as you rightly describe it, has painted myopic portraits of financial worthiness for what are, in essence, barely seed-stage proof-of-concept companies. They aren't even product companies (genuine startup material), let alone customer-centric corporations (those that are truly worthy of the public's risk-taking on the open markets). Fortunately, we're seeing a total liquidation of the bullshit SaaS industry. More than half of these companies are insolvent, and this year so far, 357 of them have laid off over 53,000 employees.

    Don't even get me started on the absurdity of trying to create economic currency models to stimulate voluntary restrictions on carbon emissions. Scientifically, it's too late for humans to impact the planetary trajectory (we would have had to make drastic changes to our agricultural and early-industrial model in the 1820s, for crying out loud); but, more broadly, Economically, this sort of faux-currency and exchange of "carbon credits" is creating economies that willingly self-sabotage any form of supply-and-demand and reward cheating-countries with unfair advantages. _____

    I agree with much of what you've said and have little to add. 99% of the public are completely unaware of the disaster that will soon befall us and part of me believes that it's probably a good thing as they'll get to enjoy, what appears to me at least, to be our last good summer before the world goes full Mad Max.

    Once the world economy releases some of the air in the massive debt bubble that has been created, we will doubtlessly see the systemic collapse of many of our institutions along with our ridiculously over-leveraged banks. There will be no bailouts this time resulting in the failure of the insitutions which were previously deemed "too big to fail" thereby causing terrible disruption to our lives. We just have to brace ourselves for what's coming.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Kaelon on Sunday, July 17, 2022 17:57:38
    Re: Russia and China
    By: Kaelon to Andeddu on Sat Jul 16 2022 06:43 pm

    I am not sure that I actually agree that China is a far better position than any Western nation right now. Yes, economically, they've centered themselves as the world's producer. But geopolitically, they are trapped. More than 80% of Chinese territory is actually largely unusable and unsuitable terrain, and given the distribution of this terrain and its vast population, it is largely constrained and, in essence, an island. And, let's not forget, it is really at least five distinct cultures with visceral hatred towards one another.

    As the global economy collapses over the next 6-12 months, China will be forced to confront its reckoning on the disasterous socioeconomic mismanagement of its population. We're not even talking about the predictable consequences of the One Child Policy - which has resulted in a material disproportion of men over women, causing everything from forced marriages and mass-rapes in the countryside to modern chattel slavery of women in the cities - but broader population control measures during this Pandemic. That latter approach has resulted in a collapse of its metropolitan economies, and the loss of global trading prestige. No one wants to attempt to enter Chinese exchanges now, not even Hong Kong (for obvious reasons). What a failure.


    You've brought up some good points about China. I can see them creating a new trading block with the other BRICs nations. They are also moving into the Middle-East and securing much needed resources in conjunction with their previous move into Africa.

    I can foresee severe civil disruption occurring within the country which is likely the reason for the implementation of the Social Credit system which is a mechanism designed to breed compliance.

    No country is shielded from the global downturn but I believe China will be able to whether the storm better than most other nations. They have secured 2 years of grain supply for their entire population compared to Western nations, including the USA, who appear to have only a 6 month supply in storage. They have far better food security, more efficent energy production along with an extensive manufacturing sector.

    ---
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Sunday, July 17, 2022 13:22:39
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 02:12 pm

    You should actually **read** my messages before replying to them.

    It was rhetorical. I wasn't talking about "you, Dr. What," I was talking about "you," the arch-capitalist defending the current nonsense.
    _____
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Andeddu on Sunday, July 17, 2022 13:27:25
    Re: Russia and China
    By: Andeddu to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 05:57 pm

    No country is shielded from the global downturn but I believe China will be able to whether the storm better than most other nations. They have secured 2 years of grain supply for their entire population compared to Western nations, including the USA, who appear to have only a 6 month supply in storage. They have far better food security, more efficent energy production along with an extensive manufacturing sector.

    Well stated. Though, we certainly have the vast natural resources in the United States to potentially "go it alone" for some indeterminant time with regards to grain production and even energy. Not many countries can legitimately state this, and despite the radical grain disruption in supply chains out of Russia and Ukraine, the food spikes are largely inflationary and global trends, not reflective of some constraint in United States supply.
    _____
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Monday, July 18, 2022 08:57:24
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Dr. What on Sat Jul 16 2022 09:18 am

    Frankly, this is bullshit. Our economic system has had numerous safeguards for institutions and corporations - such as the "bailouts" that the government (i.e., taxpayers) ensured that big banks would receive and the even large-scale industrial corporations would receive, when their risky models folded in 2008-2009. In a true Capitalist system, they should have been all allowed to fail. Where are your cries for the lame excuses of banks and manufacturing in 2008-2009, or for airlines, commodities traders, and real estate speculators now in the 2020-2022 Pandemic period?

    Let them all fail. And then we can talk about the "lame excuses" of the very valid truth that corporations have co-opted our political institutions. This isn't Capitalism, Dr. What. This is syndicate corporatism. And that's not what entrepreneurial people and innovators signed up for.
    _____

    This is what Capital wants though. It wants protection, it wants to use power. Why would people who work with Capital not wan't to rig the system in their favour? They have the capital and the power, so they can. You expect them not to?

    I don't see a difference between "syndicate corporatism" and "capitalism". The latter must lead to the former because that is how power is distributed. Capital, not producers, win the power contests so the state bails them out at the expense of producers.

    Capitalism is a lie because most producers are alienated from ownership over their work though the employment contract. Adam Smith described a system where most people were self-employed, worked for themselves, and were the final recipients of the capital they created. That is not true today, hence the mess. That is the problem, not simply 'equity', that a few people in corporations get to speak on behalf of the entire corporation against the labour within the corporation.

    Capitalism bifurcates the role of the person as 'citizen' and the person as 'employee', which means economy activity is not directed they way WE want, but they way THEY want.

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Monday, July 18, 2022 09:01:10
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Sun Jul 17 2022 02:12 pm

    That is not socailism. It is not near socialism.

    Which is the standard response from the socialists.

    "No, this isn't socialism. It's just gov't control over the markets."

    They is actually more akin to fascism.

    Besides, modern "Capitalism" is control over the economy by a few anyway.

    , Bo> Capitalism run amok leads to exploitation and crisis because the
    particular forces that drive it have no countervailing force.

    Right out of Marx. Did you quote that directly, or just paraphrase?

    Nonsense argument. Not an argument at all.

    You have to show how it is WRONG. Just saying that Marx might have said something like that doesn't prove or disprove anything.

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Andeddu on Monday, July 18, 2022 09:05:38
    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Andeddu to Boraxman on Sun Jul 17 2022 05:17 pm

    Revolution doesn't mean revolutionary thought. We could have a "revolution" where Marxist-Communists take over. That is old thought.

    The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we think that we have to choose between the two.
    We can't imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is just the same old system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the SJW's, but that really is just rehashed Christian guilt.

    We're looking at all these problems, and can't think of any new direction to go in to solve them. We cant imagine anything outside the "Capitalism/Communism" dichotomy, so we are limited by that. We can't imagine anything oustide of "Liberalism/Conservatism", so we are limited by that.

    We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't coming.

    I don't disagree but I see Capitalism/Communism as two sides of the same system with us presently in the phase where Eastern Communism merges with Western Capitalism which will be destined to collapse into the new world system.

    There will always be the haves and the have nots, elites and non-elites. This will occur in all systems old or new which have been authorised for our use.


    Agreed. The story of Western Development is greater autonomy and self-ownership. Capitalism is the half-way step towards true economic liberation. Marxism has been the 'dead end' that we've been following, where we put the state in place of 'the people'.

    The ironic thing is, my biggest problem with Capitalists, is they are SCARED of true economic freedom and strong property rights.

    All too often, Capitalists speak as if they want to hand power to the select few. Communists and Capitalists just differ in who should have that power, but when Capital holders and the state align, that point becomes moot.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Sunday, July 17, 2022 22:39:00
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Andeddu to Boraxman on Sun Jul 17 2022 05:17 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sat Jul 16 2022 02:38 pm

    Revolution doesn't mean revolutionary thought. We could have a "revoluti where Marxist-Communists take over. That is old thought.

    The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we think that we have to choose between the two. W can't imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is jus the same old system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the SJW's, but that real is just rehashed Christian guilt.

    We're looking at all these problems, and can't think of any new direction go in to solve them. We cant imagine anything outside the "Capitalism/Communism" dichotomy, so we are limited by that. We can't imagine anything oustide of "Liberalism/Conservatism", so we are limited that.

    We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't coming.

    I don't disagree but I see Capitalism/Communism as two sides of the same sys with us presently in the phase where Eastern Communism merges with Western Capitalism which will be destined to collapse into the new world system.

    There will always be the haves and the have nots, elites and non-elites. Thi will occur in all systems old or new which have been authorised for our use.


    That is why the concept of equal opportunity is now considered a bad thing.
    If two people are in a container filling with water and there is a ladder providing a way out, it is not guaranteed both will choose to climb the
    ladder. Some start out in deeper water than others, then say the system was stacked against them. Unless someone was blocking the ladder, it is hard to excuse drowning.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dr. What@VERT/ARCADIA to Boraxman on Monday, July 18, 2022 08:11:00
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    "No, this isn't socialism. It's just gov't control over the markets."

    They is actually more akin to fascism.

    Which is a form of socialism.

    Besides, modern "Capitalism" is control over the economy by a few
    anyway.

    The ignorant words of Marx. He has a great deal to say about how an economy works - even though he never worked a day in his life.

    You have to show how it is WRONG. Just saying that Marx might have
    said something like that doesn't prove or disprove anything.

    And if all you are going to do is quote the ignorant words of Marx, that is not showing that you are right.


    ... I'm not lost, I'm "locationally challenged."
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

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    * Origin: Arcadia BBS | Putnam, CT | bbs.arcadiabbs.com
  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Monday, July 18, 2022 08:12:00
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    It was rhetorical. I wasn't talking about "you, Dr. What," I was
    talking about "you," the arch-capitalist defending the current
    nonsense.

    And I was talking about not seeing things that I didn't write.

    You seem to have a strange idea that what we have today is Capitalism. It's not. Because of all the gov't "regulations" and other elitist interference, it's closer to Socialism - hence the problems you are rallying against.


    ... I'm sorry Mrs. Bobbitt, you can't send that in the mail.
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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Boraxman on Monday, July 18, 2022 08:44:00
    Hello Boraxman!

    ** On Saturday 16.07.22 - 14:38, Boraxman wrote to Andeddu:

    The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old
    ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the
    debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at
    least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we
    think that we have to choose between the two. We can't
    imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at
    property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our
    economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes
    nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is just the same old
    system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again
    with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the
    SJW's, but that really is just rehashed Christian guilt.

    [...]

    We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't
    coming.

    Not many people think in terms of when enough is enough.

    Sounds like there are some interesting thoughts by these
    people:

    [o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
    Capitalism | Paperback

    Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan
    Verso Books | Verso
    Political Science / Political Economy / Public Policy - Environmental Policy / History & Theory
    Published Jun 28, 2022

    "This book provides a vision for postcapitalism beyond growth.
    Building on a vibrant field of research, it discusses the
    political economy and the politics of a non-growing economy. It
    charts a path forward through policies that democratise the
    economy, "now-topias" that create free spaces for
    experimentation, and counter-hegemonic movements that make it
    possible to break with the logic of growth. Degrowth
    perspectives offer a way to step off the treadmill of an
    alienating, expansionist, and hierarchical system."

    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Monday, July 18, 2022 13:51:56
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:12 am

    You seem to have a strange idea that what we have today is Capitalism. It's not. Because of all the gov't "regulations" and other elitist interference, it's closer to Socialism - hence the problems you are rallying against.

    I am in agreement. We're in a Corporatist Dystopia, not in a genuine Capitalist structure. I've started a separate thread with Boraxxman to this extent, and encourage your thoughts here. Is there any way to unwind this madness in which we find ourselves? Or is it too late?
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Tuesday, July 19, 2022 12:36:41
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:11 am

    They is actually more akin to fascism.

    Which is a form of socialism.

    What? Seriously, what??!

    Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad that it captures everything but your preferred 'ideal'. Which isn't really a useful definition at all.

    The ignorant words of Marx. He has a great deal to say about how an economy works - even though he never worked a day in his life.


    OK, so everyone who has extolled the virtues of the Free Market, who didn't work a regular job should be ignored as well, as well as any other economist who has just been an economist. I always find it amusing people who dismiss some ideas as just being from "intellectuals" who have "never worked a day in their lives" then quoting other intellectuals to support their view

    Dumb argument, but I'll bite. *I'VE* worked real productive jobs for 20 years, so I therefore do get to comment. That more time working "real jobs" than Mises, Hayek or Friedman...

    And if all you are going to do is quote the ignorant words of Marx, that is
    not showing that you are right.


    I didn't quote Marx. Show me which of Marx's quotes or words I used. I'm not even a Marxist.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Tuesday, July 19, 2022 12:38:59
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:12 am


    And I was talking about not seeing things that I didn't write.

    You seem to have a strange idea that what we have today is Capitalism. It's not. Because of all the gov't "regulations" and other elitist interference, it's closer to Socialism - hence the problems you are rallying against.


    Look up "No True Scotsman Fallacy"

    Pray tell, which countries ARE Capitalst then? Is there even ONE?

    Oh, and I like how "elitist interference" doesn't include Wall St crooks, the poor victims...

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Ogg on Tuesday, July 19, 2022 20:40:30
    Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Ogg to Boraxman on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:44 am

    Not many people think in terms of when enough is enough.

    Sounds like there are some interesting thoughts by these
    people:

    [o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
    Capitalism | Paperback

    Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan
    Verso Books | Verso
    Political Science / Political Economy / Public Policy - Environmental Policy / History & Theory
    Published Jun 28, 2022

    "This book provides a vision for postcapitalism beyond growth.
    Building on a vibrant field of research, it discusses the
    political economy and the politics of a non-growing economy. It
    charts a path forward through policies that democratise the
    economy, "now-topias" that create free spaces for
    experimentation, and counter-hegemonic movements that make it
    possible to break with the logic of growth. Degrowth
    perspectives offer a way to step off the treadmill of an
    alienating, expansionist, and hierarchical system."

    Haven't heard of this book, but it seems like one that is worth adding to my reading queue. A lot of people talk of "degrowth" but under the current system, we can't make any meaningful change. The key, mentioned in the brief you've quoted, is to democratise the economy. We can all choose to consume less, but we have little choice with regards to production. Most people are employed, and the company is controlled by a few who choose how much is produced, and we have to produce in excess to take part in the economy, to pay rent, buy a house.

    Democratising the economy, giving people more power to self-govern their productive activities would allow people not only to regulate their consumption, but regulate their production (which is a form of consumption of natural resources).

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Tuesday, July 19, 2022 09:44:00
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I am in agreement. We're in a Corporatist Dystopia, not in a genuine Capitalist structure. I've started a separate thread with Boraxxman to this extent, and encourage your thoughts here. Is there any way to
    unwind this madness in which we find ourselves? Or is it too late?

    It's never too late. But the longer we stay in this mess, the longer it will take to get out. We already have a couple generations of young people who have been miseducated into thinking that socialism can actually work (despite the mountains of evidence showing otherwise).


    ... Life is not fair...it IS, however, quite a circus.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Boraxman on Tuesday, July 19, 2022 09:44:00
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad
    that it captures everything but your preferred 'ideal'. Which isn't really a useful definition at all.

    I see we have another miseducated person here. I suggest that you actually read history - especially the areas of Italy, Germany and Russia just before WWII.

    OK, so everyone who has extolled the virtues of the Free Market, who

    Ignoring the usual ignorant strawman people like you make: Take what I say to an illogical extreme then claim I'm wrong because of that.

    I didn't quote Marx. Show me which of Marx's quotes or words I used.
    I'm not even a Marxist.

    You did. But you not knowing you did shows your ignorance. Until you've overcome that ignorance, it's not possible to discuss anything with you.

    This is part of the problem with people like you: You "discuss" from a point of "I'm right. Period." without entertaining the idea that you might be wrong.

    So instead of listening, doing your own research, etc. and seeing for yourself, you expect the person that you argue with to do all the research (and wasting their time and energy) just for you to say "I don't agree."


    ... Proofread carefully to see if you any words out!
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Boraxman on Tuesday, July 19, 2022 09:44:00
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Pray tell, which countries ARE Capitalst then? Is there even ONE?

    Not anymore. We used to have one, but then people like you wrecked it.

    But that's normal: The Left ruins everything it touches.


    ... Lots of people make sense, I want to make $$$
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    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Tuesday, July 19, 2022 10:05:31
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Tue Jul 19 2022 09:44 am

    It's never too late. But the longer we stay in this mess, the longer it will take to get out. We already have a couple generations of young people who have been miseducated into thinking that socialism can actually work (despite the mountains of evidence showing otherwise).

    I completely agree with you.

    I wonder what can be done at this stage of Corporate Syndicate control to unwind this affair? Is it re-education of young people re: the socialist or nationalized / syndicate control schemes that exist today and why they are actually bad? Is it the creation of a true Capitalist system somewhere else that can show it works better? (Kind of like how the American Colonies demonstrated a lighter hand of capitalism could out-perform English Mercantilism?)

    Or are we looking at something more revolutionary in store for our societies across the globe?
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Tuesday, July 19, 2022 12:44:41
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Tue Jul 19 2022 09:44 am

    Not anymore. We used to have one, but then people like you wrecked it.

    But that's normal: The Left ruins everything it touches.

    When? During the 80s, when grants and high taxes subsidized education for many Americans?

    During the 60s and 70s when union membership was significantly higher?

    During the 90s, when the government was tossing money at anyone who "knew the cyber"?


    Go on, say something firm that you can be fact-checked on. None of this "Oh, it happened somewhere somewhen, but I can't say it [because then that'd be committing to a truth]" nonsense.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 09:40:09
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Tue Jul 19 2022 09:44 am

    I see we have another miseducated person here. I suggest that you actually read history - especially the areas of Italy, Germany and Russia just before WWII.


    I'm familiar with that period of history.


    Ignoring the usual ignorant strawman people like you make: Take what I say to an illogical extreme then claim I'm wrong because of that.
    You did. But you not knowing you did shows your ignorance. Until you've overcome that ignorance, it's not possible to discuss anything with you.

    This is part of the problem with people like you: You "discuss" from a point of "I'm right. Period." without entertaining the idea that you might be wrong.

    If I quoted Marx, you would then be able to provide the quote. All my replies are still here.

    So instead of listening, doing your own research, etc. and seeing for yourself, you expect the person that you argue with to do all the research (and wasting their time and energy) just for you to say "I don't agree."


    You've done nothing but make vague accusations of Socialism because I dared to suggest that Capitalism wasn't all that peachy.

    There isn't an argument here because you haven't made a point you've been able to substatiate yet.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 09:45:14
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Tue Jul 19 2022 09:44 am

    Not anymore. We used to have one, but then people like you wrecked it.

    But that's normal: The Left ruins everything it touches.



    "People like me"...

    Oh my!!

    Yes, it was little old white collar worker me that ruined Capitalism all the way from Australia. Not the Wall Street crooks, not the housing bubble, not the wealth inequality, not the corruption and crooked money influencing politics, not the over-financialisation of the economy, the banks giving dud loans, bosses offshoring manufacturing en masse, the monopolists, the rent seekers, it was little old me that messed it all.

    If there are NO Capitalism countries now, then doesn't that show it doesn't work? Not even ONE successful Capitalist country...

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 08:07:00
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I wonder what can be done at this stage of Corporate Syndicate control
    to unwind this affair? Is it re-education of young people re: the socialist or nationalized / syndicate control schemes that exist today
    and why they are actually bad? Is it the creation of a true Capitalist system somewhere else that can show it works better? (Kind of like how the American Colonies demonstrated a lighter hand of capitalism could out-perform English Mercantilism?)

    Both need to be done.

    We need to get the gov't out of business. They should not regulate to the extent that they do (why do I need to ask the gov't for permission to run a business?, for example). They should not pick the winners and losers.

    But if we don't have a populace that thinks that big gov't is a bad idea, then they will keep electing the elitists who created the mess that we have today.

    Or are we looking at something more revolutionary in store for our societies across the globe?

    And that's a good question. Not something that I can assess. With America descending, that opens the possibilities that some other countries may take over.


    ... Any given program, once running, is obsolete.
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Margaerynne on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 08:07:00
    Margaerynne wrote to Dr. What <=-

    When? During the 80s, when grants and high taxes subsidized education
    for many Americans?

    Who got worthless degrees and became useless people, while funding worthless professors in useless programs.

    During the 60s and 70s when union membership was significantly higher?

    Unions have done nothing in the last 40 years for the worker. They have only made our products cost more and with lower quality, which, in turn, made businesses leave the U.S.

    During the 90s, when the government was tossing money at anyone who
    "knew the cyber"?

    Was this to disprove my statement about "The Left ruins everything it touches"? Because all your statement did was prove it.

    Go on, say something firm that you can be fact-checked on. None of
    this "Oh, it happened somewhere somewhen, but I can't say it [because
    then that'd be committing to a truth]" nonsense.

    I'll throw that right back at you. Show me a Leftie program that actually did what they claimed it would. Because their track record shows that no such program exists.


    ... You're not losing more hair, you're gaining more scalp.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

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    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 12:43:38
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Margaerynne on Wed Jul 20 2022 08:07 am

    Go on, say something firm that you can be fact-checked on. None of this "Oh, it happened somewhere somewhen, but I can't say it [because then that'd be committing to a truth]" nonsense.

    I'll throw that right back at you. Show me a Leftie program that actually did what they claimed it would. Because
    their track record shows that no such program exists.

    I asked you first, Senator. The question was "Can you give a concrete example of what you claimed?"

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 13:28:08
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Wed Jul 20 2022 08:07 am

    Both need to be done.

    We need to get the gov't out of business. They should not regulate to the extent that they do (why do I need to ask the gov't for permission to run a business?, for example). They should not pick the winners and losers.

    Completely agree. Also consider the limited areas where a national government should legitimately function - such as defense, infrastructure, conducting an equitable and non-entangling foreign policy - and we quickly see where our vast Federal Institutions have failed our people. I forget where I read this, but aren't something like a third of all bridges and roads in the United States on the verge of collapse? What a disgrace.

    But if we don't have a populace that thinks that big gov't is a bad idea, then they will keep electing the elitists who created the mess that we have today.

    Libertarianism has a long way to go to educate people about the personal responsibility necessary to cultivate a truly civic-minded society. Considering just how polluted the U.S. Libertarian movement is with rampant speculators in Non-Fungible Tokens and Cryptocurrency, or the number of sell-outs co-opting Libertarian talking-points for very clearly Corporatist perspectives, we would be well-served to start with either a cleanse there or a new political party.

    Or are we looking at something more revolutionary in store for our societies across the globe?

    And that's a good question. Not something that I can assess. With America descending, that opens the possibilities that some other countries may take over.

    You and I both. I don't have especially high hopes for any other Anglo-Saxon or Nordic Country, considering the entire Commonwealth has veered towards socialist principles and even the most promising candidate-countries - like Australia - are positively leftist and bloated in comparison to what I would expect of a true capitalist system.

    That said, I fear that the United States' socioeconomic decline and impending political collapse will not, conversely, equate to a real geopolitical decline in our standing in the world. After all, the United States has the most enviable position on the planet - geographically capable of dominating both the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, dictating the circumstances of global trade unlike any other country, and topographically capable of harvesting vast natural resources to achieve its organizational aims.

    People often forget that the Roman Republic fell, but what succeeded it - the Roman Empire and the consequential authoritarian Principate - was far more successful in dominating the known world at the time and instituting its own global order (i.e., the Pax Romana). What our next global order will be, however, terrifies me, and I can only pray we will long be gone before we have to live through it (or under it).
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Thursday, July 21, 2022 06:04:27
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Dr. What on Sun Jul 17 2022 01:22 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 02:12 pm

    You should actually **read** my messages before replying to them.

    It was rhetorical. I wasn't talking about "you, Dr. What," I was talking about "you
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

    Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed banks crash and
    rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that, to arrange a solution for a
    profit.

    Here in Spain we had lots of banks buying crashed banks because of their customer
    portfolio.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ogg on Thursday, July 21, 2022 06:10:38
    Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Ogg to Boraxman on Mon Jul 18 2022 08:44 am


    Not many people think in terms of when enough is enough.

    Sounds like there are some interesting thoughts by these
    people:

    [o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
    Capitalism | Paperback

    Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan
    Verso Books | Verso
    Political Science / Political Economy / Public Policy - Environmental Policy / Hist
    Published Jun 28, 2022

    "This book provides a vision for postcapitalism beyond growth.
    Building on a vibrant field of research, it discusses the
    political economy and the politics of a non-growing economy. It
    charts a path forward through policies that democratise the
    economy, "now-topias" that create free spaces for
    experimentation, and counter-hegemonic movements that make it
    possible to break with the logic of growth. Degrowth
    perspectives offer a way to step off the treadmill of an
    alienating, expansionist, and hierarchical system."


    As I have already mentioned, Keynessians are the ones accusing everybody from wanting
    economical growth at any cost while being themselves the ones promoting growth at any
    cost policies.

    Meanwhile you can find books from Capitalist ideologues from the 40s who talked about
    deflationary economies in a non-disfavorable light.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Thursday, July 21, 2022 06:18:45
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Dr. What on Tue Jul 19 2022 12:36 pm

    They is actually more akin to fascism.

    Which is a form of socialism.

    What? Seriously, what??!

    Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad that it capture


    If you check the political programs of actual Fascist groups, you will notice they are
    Socialist programs.

    The main difference between a Fascist State and a Communist State is that Communism
    does what it does in the name of The Workers while Fascists do for Our Country.

    In practical terms, this shows when Western Socialists are seen trying to provide
    Socialism for everybody (such as immigrants or poor people not related to the country)
    while Fascists want Socialism for nationals only.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Thursday, July 21, 2022 05:40:46
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:04 am

    Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed banks crash and rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that, to arrange a solution for a profit.

    Here in Spain we had lots of banks buying crashed banks because of their customer portfolio.

    Yes. And I am in full agreement with the concept that true Capitalism, without institutional interference but with some basic safeguards to ensure that consolidation to exploit consumers is restricted, has to have clear risks to match their rewards. Banks have enjoyed vast profits with almost no real risk of collapse.

    True Capitalism would have allowed all of the banks to fail. And would have never allowed such a thing as "too big to fail" to exist. But, as we've discussed elsewhere, the Western Global Order is not capitalist. It is a Corporate Syndicate that reflects the consolidation of economic and political pillars in our society stemming from the Post-War Order.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Margaerynne on Thursday, July 21, 2022 08:40:00
    Margaerynne wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I asked you first, Senator. The question was "Can you give a concrete example of what you claimed?"

    And I don't waste my time and energy on people who refuse to look for themselves.


    ... You're not losing more hair, you're gaining more scalp.
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Thursday, July 21, 2022 08:40:00
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Completely agree. Also consider the limited areas where a national government should legitimately function - such as defense,
    infrastructure, conducting an equitable and non-entangling foreign
    policy - and we quickly see where our vast Federal Institutions have failed our people. I forget where I read this, but aren't something
    like a third of all bridges and roads in the United States on the verge
    of collapse? What a disgrace.

    Road funding is interesting. Speaking about the Interstate road system:
    + Taxes are collected locally.
    + Sent to the Federal Gov't.
    + Who then doles it back out to the states to "maintain the Interstate" in their own states.

    But (like here in Michigan) the governors use that money to fund social programs instead. And the unions suck a great deal of that money up as well to "fix" the roads.

    Libertarianism has a long way to go to educate people about the
    personal responsibility necessary to cultivate a truly civic-minded society.

    That's really the job of the public education system. But the Elites have destroyed that.

    You and I both. I don't have especially high hopes for any other Anglo-Saxon or Nordic Country, considering the entire Commonwealth has veered towards socialist principles and even the most promising candidate-countries - like Australia - are positively leftist and
    bloated in comparison to what I would expect of a true capitalist
    system.

    Surprisingly, it seems that the USSR is poised to be the economic powerhouse of the future.

    That said, I fear that the United States' socioeconomic decline and impending political collapse will not, conversely, equate to a real geopolitical decline in our standing in the world. After all, the
    United States has the most enviable position on the planet - geographically capable of dominating both the Atlantic and Pacific
    Oceans, dictating the circumstances of global trade unlike any other country, and topographically capable of harvesting vast natural
    resources to achieve its organizational aims.

    I believe that matters less when many countries have missiles that can hit anywhere on the planet. And to be militarily dominant, you need a well-equiped military. But to get that, you have to have an economic engine capable of doing that.

    Remember: The USSR fell mainly because we caused them to over spend militarily.

    What our next
    global order will be, however, terrifies me, and I can only pray we
    will long be gone before we have to live through it (or under it).

    I hear you on that.

    I hope that we can stomp out this mess that the Ignorant Elitists have created in the next few years.


    ... I have but three enemies: fear, anger, ignorance.
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Thursday, July 21, 2022 06:01:41
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Thu Jul 21 2022 08:40 am

    Road funding is interesting. Speaking about the Interstate road system:
    + Taxes are collected locally.
    + Sent to the Federal Gov't.
    + Who then doles it back out to the states to "maintain the Interstate" in their own states.

    It's a very strong indictment of the quaintness of our federalist system. Our institutions have veered so far from Hamilton and Madison that the way in which the Federal Government and States interact monetarily is a profane "saving the phenomenon" that doesn't ultimately benefit constituents or citizens at any level.

    But (like here in Michigan) the governors use that money to fund social programs instead. And the unions suck a great deal of that money up as well to "fix" the roads.

    In Massachusetts, like much of the Northeast, we deal with a typical inbalance. We pay far more in taxes - both locally and federally - than we receive back in services. The Federal Government redistributes income taxes collected to poorer and less developed regions of the country. Certainly, there is a legitimate "e pluribus unum" perspective to ensuring that we're all in this together to a certain extent, but there is increasingly little benefit back to New England and the Northeast for the taxes we provide.

    Couple this with an increasingly authoritarian and interventionist social policy advanced by extremists on both sides of the political spectrum, and our moderate sensitivities here start looking woefully out of place in the United States.

    That's really the job of the public education system. But the Elites have destroyed that.

    I completely agree that our sociopolitical decline began to when President Nixon's resignation left a shattered Republican Party behind that, then, corporations co-opted and, eventually, a decade later Evangelicals would forge an unholy alliance, in order to undermine the principally secular, humanistic, individualistic values. The elimination of Civics as mandatory courses in our public school system is the foundation of a lot of this rot, and all of the evils that followed - from the elimination of the fairness doctrine to usher in the junk-food of "infotainment" and elimination of fact-based news, to the corruption of our entire public education system - essentially handed over multiple generations of young minds to the Corporatists and Elitists. And now, we have a vastly stupid population that believes things like:

    - Science is a lie.
    - Truth is all relative.
    - People cannot be trusted.

    Welcome to 1984.

    Surprisingly, it seems that the USSR is poised to be the economic powerhouse of the future.

    I am not sure that I can agree. Russia can be resurgent, there's no doubt; but it has huge geopolitical problems, chief of which is a dwindling population and a massively declining birth rate. I don't think it can present a compelling economic alternative to compete with the West, at least, not anytime soon. You rightly point out that our Strategic Defense Initiative, and other intense military spending under President Reagan, precipitated the Soviet Union's collapse. But this was possible less due to financial systematic reasons, and much more due to the limited resources available to Russia to actually marshal and harness production capabilities to match the rest of the Western Alliance.

    Russia is largely a petro-chemical state. It would need at least 20-30 years to redesign its economy around a fully self-sustaining and exporting model. While Western Sanctions are giving Russia ample space to start this transformation, the ensuing brain drain of its high tech and innovative talent makes it highly unlikely that it would be able to compete with Asian Combine countries (especially Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and even troubled states like China and India) in the evolving and rapidly changing high tech sector. It will be a consumer, not a producer, in these fields, and as you've rightly pointed out, the creation of a consumerist state is the first sign that national sovereignty is being economically subjugated to foreign powers.

    That subjugation is being resisted in Russia purely by relying upon the energy model of yesteryear, and it's something that Europe and North America are set to leave behind within a few years at this stage.

    I believe that matters less when many countries have missiles that can hit anywhere on the planet. And to be militarily dominant, you need a well-equiped military. But to get that, you have to have an economic engine capable of doing that.

    Remember: The USSR fell mainly because we caused them to over spend militarily.

    I completely agree. The United States is so far ahead of the rest of the world - not just in sheer military capacity, but also in absolute military technology and innovation - that its only comparison is the Roman Imperial Order. The closest rivals that Rome faced - Parthia and farther out Han China - were over a hundred years behind on the innovation of key military technologies. So, too, can be said about China's military technology (at least 70 years behind ours), and Russia's military technology which has been hilariously demonstrated in its totally inept Ukrainian war pursuit: they are literally using the same weapons used in World War II to wage this offensive, with only nominal improvements in payload yield. So, they can only bombard their way to victory, and that is not a recipe for conquest or state-building.
    _____
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  • From Margaerynne@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Thursday, July 21, 2022 08:42:21
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Margaerynne on Thu Jul 21 2022 08:40 am

    And I don't waste my time and energy on people who refuse to look for themselves.
    Then I'll continue living as I've been, unconvinced of the point you won't even put the effort into substantiating.

    Not the most desirable outcome for a debate, I'm sure, but it's the only one you seem capable of achieving. Anything else would require proof ;)

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Thursday, July 21, 2022 08:49:04
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Dr. What on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:01 am

    Science is a lie.
    Truth is relative.
    People cannot be trusted.

    Actually, you can trust people. You will get a knife in between your ribs if you make such mistake, though.

    Doubts cast on Truth and Science originate from the fact that most people does not use primary sources to inform themselves and rely on other people (who cannot be trusted) for that.




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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Arelor on Thursday, July 21, 2022 07:34:00
    Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

    Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed banks crash and rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that,
    to arrange a solution for a profit.

    The idea is that if a business fails, you free up the capital for a new business built on stronger foundations/ideals. You don't patch a sinking
    ship, you build a better ship.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Thursday, July 21, 2022 15:59:00
    In practical terms, this shows when Western Socialists are seen trying to prov
    e
    Socialism for everybody (such as immigrants or poor people not related to the country)
    while Fascists want Socialism for nationals only.

    Exactly.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to KAELON on Thursday, July 21, 2022 16:06:00
    - Science is a lie.
    - Truth is all relative.
    - People cannot be trusted.

    It would also seem that some of the people who point to "science" in some instances believe it to be relative, like truth, in others.


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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dumas Walker on Thursday, July 21, 2022 19:54:05
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to KAELON on Thu Jul 21 2022 04:06 pm

    It would also seem that some of the people who point to "science" in some instances believe it to be relative, like truth, in others.

    Very true. U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-NY) once famously said "You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." Very eloquent corollary to the Federalist Papers where Alexander Hamilton summarizes the dilemma with our Republic - it only works with a well-educated population. Little wonder, then, how we've arrived at the current dilemma.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Thursday, July 21, 2022 19:58:22
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Thu Jul 21 2022 08:49 am

    Actually, you can trust people. You will get a knife in between your ribs if you make such mistake, though.

    No doubt, but there is an inherent cost to the fabric of civilization when you look at your neighbors and presume them to be the enemy. We've gone too far as a society with this nativist, silo'ed view and it's a zero-sum game that has destroyed civility in our civilization.

    Doubts cast on Truth and Science originate from the fact that most people does not use primary sources to inform themselves and rely on other people (who cannot be trusted) for that.

    I completely agree with you. The absence of proper education - not the studying of facts, but the theory of knowledge itself, of critical thinking, the application of primary sources through methods of inquiry and validation - has rendered our entire population, by and large, stupid. The Poly Shore movie from the late 1990s "Idiocracy" should clearly come across as a documentary now.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Friday, July 22, 2022 08:33:00
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    It's a very strong indictment of the quaintness of our federalist
    system. Our institutions have veered so far from Hamilton and Madison that the way in which the Federal Government and States interact monetarily is a profane "saving the phenomenon" that doesn't ultimately benefit constituents or citizens at any level.

    Oh, ya. But I figured that the Elitists and their hangers-on have been slowly perverting the system since the start.

    Sometimes they overstep and get caught, but not often enough.

    In Massachusetts, like much of the Northeast, we deal with a typical inbalance. We pay far more in taxes - both locally and federally - than
    we receive back in services. The Federal Government redistributes
    income taxes collected to poorer and less developed regions of the country.

    And it's made worse because a good chunk of that money is skimmed off by various people through the process. Contracts to do something given to a buddy, for example. Grants made to others, which kick the money back in the form of political donations. Etc.

    Elitists. And now, we have a vastly stupid population that believes things like:

    - Science is a lie.

    Plus what they claim to be "science" is not science, but rather the musings of the Ignorant Elitists who happen to have a worthless degree.

    - Truth is all relative.

    Postmodernism has been around a long time. Mostly in the ignorant "intellectual" classes.

    - People cannot be trusted.

    A general breakdown of society helps them seize power.

    Welcome to 1984.

    Maybe closer to "Atlas Shrugged".

    the West, at least, not anytime soon. You rightly point out that our Strategic Defense Initiative, and other intense military spending under President Reagan, precipitated the Soviet Union's collapse. But this
    was possible less due to financial systematic reasons, and much more
    due to the limited resources available to Russia to actually marshal
    and harness production capabilities to match the rest of the Western Alliance.

    But my point was that we basially had a "military spending war" and we won because we had more money to spend. If we have less, such a war isn't going to turn out good for us.

    I completely agree. The United States is so far ahead of the rest of
    the world - not just in sheer military capacity, but also in absolute military technology and innovation

    But we are squandering that lead. The amount of wokeness in the military is truely alarming.

    And the Dems have been pushing to cut military spending for a long time now. It's hard to keep up if you can't move forward.

    ... ...I multi-task, I read in the bathroom.
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Margaerynne on Friday, July 22, 2022 08:33:00
    Margaerynne wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Then I'll continue living as I've been, unconvinced of the point you won't even put the effort into substantiating.

    And that means something to me because...?

    Not the most desirable outcome for a debate, I'm sure, but it's the
    only one you seem capable of achieving. Anything else would require
    proof ;)

    "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture." -- Thomas Paine

    Which is why I don't bother to "debate" with people like you.


    ... If you have nothing to say, please only say it once!
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Friday, July 22, 2022 07:19:17
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Fri Jul 22 2022 08:33 am

    Oh, ya. But I figured that the Elitists and their hangers-on have been slowly perverting the system since the start.

    I completely agree. I feel that we've at least had some calibrating events throughout our history to dislodge elitists, inject some populism, and balance it out with merit. But I think the last time we really had an infusion of this was during President Nixon's administration, and to call it truly meritocratic is to look the other way on some of the inescapable abuses of power.

    Sometimes they overstep and get caught, but not often enough.
    And it's made worse because a good chunk of that money is skimmed off by various people through the process. Contracts to do something given to a buddy, for example. Grants made to others, which kick the money back in the form of political donations. Etc.

    Yes. Unions in the Northeast are a disaster, largely because they have outlived their longevity. I don't disagree that new Unions are needed to help workers organize and engage in collective bargaining in cases where there is limited competition and corporations aren't engaging with a long-term vision in mind (such as Starbucks, Amazon, and the like). But construction work is notoriously corrupt, and construction unions are an absurd abuse by and large because union management - not the workers - skim the real deals struck with government and big business.

    Plus what they claim to be "science" is not science, but rather the musings of the Ignorant Elitists who happen to have a worthless degree.

    Absolutely spot on.

    Postmodernism has been around a long time. Mostly in the ignorant "intellectual" classes.

    I am reminded of Pope Benedict XVI's admonition against the "dictatorship of relativism." When there is no truth, then the only reality is whatever those in power mandate it to be. And then there can be no "right" or "wrong," no "good" or "evil," only what is promoted to be ostensible and whatever runs afoul of power.

    A general breakdown of society helps them seize power.

    There is no doubt that Elitists remain in power thanks in large part to Roman-style bread-and-circuses. I mentioned elsewhere that if we managed to break down the cycle of junk-food entertainment ("infotainment") and genuine malnutrition of the vast majority of the population, conditions would start to change quickly.

    Maybe closer to "Atlas Shrugged".

    It's definitely a dystopia.

    But my point was that we basially had a "military spending war" and we won because we had more money to spend. If we have less, such a war isn't going to turn out good for us.

    I am less concerned about Russia's capability to match the United States, let alone the entirety of the Western Alliance, with military or economic means. It is, by and large, a third-rate power that has been exposed being geopolitically beholden to second-world countries. It is a tremendous humiliation for Putin. China, on the other hand, has what it takes and has been embarking on a very concerted push.

    But we are squandering that lead. The amount of wokeness in the military is truely alarming.

    You think there's "wokeness" in the military? I would love to understand why you think that. I think there is an absolute authoritarian and fascist bent, especially among junior officers and rank-and-file who have not really been thoroughly indoctrinated into the civic virtues that the Armed Forces are renowned for instilling in their organization. I would attribute this to an institutional breakdown of onboarding and adoption, but not a proliferation of "wokeness." There is significant organizational resistence to "woke" measures like allowing women and men to co-mingle in battle, permitting openly-gay members of the military to serve, and even gender-reassignment. All of these "woke" measures are seen for what they are - contributing to the general breakdown of the organization's cohesiveness and subverting military discipline. Individuals need to be prepared to shed their individual concerns if they are to truly be a part of a military tradition.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Friday, July 22, 2022 08:50:51
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:58 pm


    Actually, you can trust people. You will get a knife in between your ribs you make such mistake, though.

    No doubt, but there is an inherent cost to the fabric of civilization when y in our civilization.


    The thing is that when I run into your average Humanist who thinks we should all love each other like brothers,the first idea that comes to mind is that person has never stepped out of his ivory tower.

    What has taken us far as a civilization is precisely that we have been using a system according to which it might be in my best interest to help another person because I will then be rewarded. Even if I were the dirtiest scumbag on earth, I would be given a positive incentive to behave.

    It is when you decopuple work from profit that things go very wrong. For example, if you pay your constructor contractor in advance, you are in for a world of pain, because the contractor has a very weak incentive to perform well now he has the money - money he will use to work for somebody else who has not paid already.

    Sorry, but people is inherentĄly untrustworthy and this is evident for anybody who ever tries to push forward a personal project that needs support from other people. Friends are your friends only as long as it does not cost them any effort. Once your friendship requires maintenance on their part, you can kiss your friends goodbie.

    Success comes from realizing that most people will backstab you for a bag of chewing gum and keeping a close circle of trustworthy friends from the 5% that would not murder their mothers for pocket change.

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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Boraxman on Friday, July 22, 2022 07:53:00
    Hello Boraxman!

    ** On Tuesday 19.07.22 - 20:40, Boraxman wrote to Ogg:

    [o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
    Capitalism | Paperback

    Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan

    Haven't heard of this book, but it seems like one that is
    worth adding to my reading queue. [...]

    to consume less, but we have little choice with regards to
    production. Most people are employed, and the company is
    controlled by a few who choose how much is produced, and we
    have to produce in excess to take part in the economy, to
    pay rent, buy a house.

    I would think that if/when people can be satisfied by consuming
    less, then production/imports wouldn't be an issue.. and all of
    us would settle into a 3 or 4-day work week.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to KAELON on Friday, July 22, 2022 16:10:00
    It would also seem that some of the people who point to "science" in some instances believe it to be relative, like truth, in others.

    Very true. U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-NY) once famously said "You
    re entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts."
    ery eloquent corollary to the Federalist Papers where Alexander Hamilton summa
    zes the dilemma with our Republic - it only works with a well-educated populat
    n. Little wonder, then, how we've arrived at the current dilemma.

    Indeed.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "I'm cold, and there are wolves after me!"-Granpa Simpson

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:38:10
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:18 am

    What? Seriously, what??!

    Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad that it capture


    If you check the political programs of actual Fascist groups, you will notice they are
    Socialist programs.

    The main difference between a Fascist State and a Communist State is that Communism
    does what it does in the name of The Workers while Fascists do for Our Country.

    In practical terms, this shows when Western Socialists are seen trying to provide
    Socialism for everybody (such as immigrants or poor people not related to the country)
    while Fascists want Socialism for nationals only.

    --
    Many Western Socialists are Marxist in nature, or more specifically, Trotskyites

    Fascism is only "Socialism" in that the state runs things, but the state doesn't represent the will of the people. It is on paper perhaps socialism, but in practice totalitarianism. The public don't really have any practical rights to control industry, commerce and production. This is the kind of sophistry that allows North Korea to proclaim itself Democratic. I mean, the ruling dynasty is the head of the people, right? Some of Hitlers writing sounded positively Marxist, but there was never any real Socialism, only the propagandist elements of anti-Capitalist thought.

    A very broad defintion of Socialism covers everything that isn't Capitalism, so therefore is not useful. Government programs and welfare have been defined and Socialism, but this is a distinctly seperate idea to Marxist socialism, or other types.

    Consider the term "Democracy". We call ourselves a democracy, but it is a distinctly different system to Athenian democracy. Democracy doesn't describe a system, but only characteristics. Two different systems can share the same characterstics and be called "Democracy".

    This is also true for Capitalism. Any system where the means of production is privately owned is Capitalism, so "Capitalism" can describe two very different systems, one of totalitarian monopolist oligarchs, and one of an ownership economy with universal self-employment and democratically run firms, similar to what I endorse. Both technically Capitalist, but to lump them as if they were both the same would be in error.

    This is the problem really, a system can be replaced by something quite different, yet claim to be the same thing because of a single shared general attribute or two.

    Typically though, when someone says "Socialist" in an accusatory tone they are either referring to Marxism, or if they are of the libertarian/AnCap bent, referring to any system which has welfare and government spending more than their ideology deems appropriate.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:54:20
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 2022 05:40 am

    Yes. And I am in full agreement with the concept that true Capitalism, without institutional interference but with some basic safeguards to ensure that consolidation to exploit consumers is restricted, has to have clear risks to match their rewards. Banks have enjoyed vast profits with almost no real risk of collapse.

    True Capitalism would have allowed all of the banks to fail. And would have never allowed such a thing as "too big to fail" to exist. But, as we've discussed elsewhere, the Western Global Order is not capitalist. It is a Corporate Syndicate that reflects the consolidation of economic and political pillars in our society stemming from the Post-War Order.
    _____

    What *IS* true Capitalism? Serious question. IT seems to me like saying if we has TRUE Christianity then.... That just invites debate as to which is the true Christianity. Is it the Catholics, the Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses?

    AnarchoCapitalists say theirs is the true faith, but others have different ideas.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to poindexter FORTRAN on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:56:42
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:34 am

    The idea is that if a business fails, you free up the capital for a new business built on stronger foundations/ideals. You don't patch a sinking ship, you build a better ship.

    When Wall St tomfoolery crashes the market, it doens't "Free up" capital. Wealth just dissapears.

    Blowing up the economy doesn't free up Capital.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Ogg on Saturday, July 23, 2022 11:03:45
    Re: Recession to Depression
    By: Ogg to Boraxman on Fri Jul 22 2022 07:53 am

    I would think that if/when people can be satisfied by consuming
    less, then production/imports wouldn't be an issue.. and all of
    us would settle into a 3 or 4-day work week.

    The reason we can't is because we don't really have economic freedom. We only get to control a minority of our economic decisions.

    If we had more agency over our economic decisions that we make in our lives, I think we would gravitate towards less consumerism and have that shorter work week.

    Most people who are "de-growthers" miss this very important point, and think we can make change without the power to make it. Think about what they say, they only talk about consumption. What is the BIGGEST economy activity that you will partake in? It is (if you lead a profitable life), production, your employment. Because your productive activity is controlled by others in a dictatorial way, you really have far, far less freedom and agency than you are led to believe.

    The individuality and freedom of our Capitalist system is a lie. A shabby lie and it is time that people woke up to it.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 06:52:19
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:38 am


    Fascism is only "Socialism" in that the state runs things, but the state doe commerce and production. This is the kind of sophistry that allows North Ko Socialism, only the propagandist elements of anti-Capitalist thought.


    I'd argue that no State represents the will of the people, and therefore, any Socialist State does not represent the will of the people either. Therefore, according to your logic, Socialism is not Socialism (which is absurd).

    Fascism didn't make a flag from authoritarism. It made a flag of principles such as not leaveing anybody behind, organizing strategic industries in Unions in order to preserve everybody's rights, and improving the standing of everybody by improving the standing of the nation (because the nation is the people).

    Spanish Fascism stablished lots of Socialists programs still in use today, such as Social Security and State funded housing for the poor, because General Franco was the benevolent overseer who ensured not one of us was left behind.

    Of course, if you disliked Franco or the vertical Unions, you disliked Spain and therefore you disliked every Spaniard. As such, you were a Communist traitor and we had to shoot you in order to protect our rights.



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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BORAXMAN on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:02:00
    Fascism is only "Socialism" in that the state runs things, but the state doesn
    represent the will of the people. It is on paper perhaps socialism, but in p
    ctice totalitarianism. The public don't really have any practical rights to c
    trol industry, commerce and production. This is the kind of sophistry that al
    ws North Korea to proclaim itself Democratic. I mean, the ruling dynasty is t
    head of the people, right? Some of Hitlers writing sounded positively Marxis
    but there was never any real Socialism, only the propagandist elements of ant
    Capitalist thought.

    Socialism and, especially its cousin Communism, are only socialism on paper also. In practice, they are also usually totalitarian and certainly are not really the will of the people. North Korea is a good example. The
    Stalinist USSR, Maoist China, and Venezuela are also good examples.


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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:14:56
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri Jul 22 2022 08:50 am

    The thing is that when I run into your average Humanist who thinks we should all love each other like brothers,the first idea that comes to mind is that person has never stepped out of his ivory tower.

    I agree. I am also not your "average" Humanist. I am a Machiavellian, and as a long-standing student of both Niccolo and of History in general, I agree with the assertion that mankind is inherently selfish and wicked. But that does not mean that your neighbor is, by default, the enemy. And this tribalism inherent in deeply polarized and manipulated societies, is manufactured and not legitimate. Your neighbor across the street isn't plotting ways to destroy you. They are plotting ways to succeed in life, and trying to figure out if you - among others - will be a net-add or a net-loss to their plans.

    In short, people should start with a state of apathy and distrust; not a state of emnity and antagonism. Herein is the distinctive difference in what is weakening Western Civilization -- by allowing effeminate Eastern philosophy from building this notion of hyper-relativism (rather than a culture of genuine absolutisms), which simply exposes our civilization to weakness and division.

    It is when you decopuple work from profit that things go very wrong. For example, if you pay your constructor contractor in advance, you are in for a world of pain, because the contractor has a very weak incentive to perform well now he has the money - money he will use to work for somebody else who has not paid already.

    Again, we agree. Payments pro-rata, in proportion to work completed or to take the steps necessary to build trust, are essential. Only once you establish trust with your neighbor, your merchant, your provider, can you then start to advance the nature of the relationship beyond sheer apathetic neutrality and towards genuine friendship.

    Success comes from realizing that most people will backstab you for a bag of chewing gum and keeping a close circle of trustworthy friends from the 5% that would not murder their mothers for pocket change.

    But it is also important to recognize that the other 40% of the population that is being portrayed as arrayed against you is not, in fact, the 'enemy' and is made of mostly stuff that is largely similar to your own. The true Enemy, foreign manipulators from weak cultures looking to divide and dominate the West, would want nothing more than for our partisan politics to create the sort of discord that it has. And they have largely succeeded in destroying the Western fabric of civility, civic virtue, and collegial compromise.

    They must not be allowed to succeed further.
    _____
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:24:20
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:54 am

    What *IS* true Capitalism? Serious question. IT seems to me like saying if we has TRUE Christianity then.... That just invites debate as to which is the true Christianity. Is it the Catholics, the Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses?

    First of all, I would never advance dogma as part of a central truth. Truths have factual elements born from observation and experimentation to establish their systems of tautology. Dogma would advance absolutes regardless of facts, and the idea that "Capitalism must look exactly like this in order for it to be qualified as capitalism," is misguided zealotry, at best.

    Capitalism's central tautological tenets, therefore, have been borne out through history, and I understand them to be as follows, at their "core":

    1. Free Markets, open to easy and unencumbered entrance by new players, to spur genuine competition so that customers have comparable choices and companies have incentives to innovate.

    2. Anti-Trust, so that large companies do not consolidate the marketplace to eliminate the possibility of new entrants from competing or limit the choices that consumers have when determining what to purchase.

    3. Transparency, in understanding the way in which companies are managing their businesses so that shareholders can make informed decisions about where to invest and how to cast votes.

    4. Accountability, in ensuring that for every reward gained there is a proportional and real risk endured in the marketplace by its actors, and that success is rewarded and failure accordingly punished.

    5. Openness, in ensuring that government does not interfere in the participation in its market by creating favored winners or losers, but whose only laws and regulations exist to enforce the above characteristics.

    Those are my views. What do you think? Capitalism shouldn't be a religion. It should be a constant civic virtue to make the system work through freedom, anti-trust, transparency, risk-and-reward, and institutional openness.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Sunday, July 24, 2022 11:45:27
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 06:52 am

    I'd argue that no State represents the will of the people, and therefore, any Socialist State does not represent the will of the people either. Therefore, according to your logic, Socialism is not Socialism (which is absurd).

    Fascism didn't make a flag from authoritarism. It made a flag of principles such as not leaveing anybody behind, organizing strategic industries in Unions in order to preserve everybody's rights, and improving the standing of everybody by improving the standing of the nation (because the nation is the people).

    Spanish Fascism stablished lots of Socialists programs still in use today, such as Social Security and State funded housing for the poor, because General Franco was the benevolent overseer who ensured not one of us was left behind.

    Of course, if you disliked Franco or the vertical Unions, you disliked Spain and therefore you disliked every Spaniard. As such, you were a Communist traitor and we had to shoot you in order to protect our rights.


    I stated that there were different types of Socialism which are in detail, quite different systems. I never said that Socailism MUST be state based. State based "Socialist" systems exist, as well as Anarchist Socialist systems. Much in the same way that you can have State sponsored Capitalism or Libertarianism/Anarcho-Capitalism, Capitalism without a state. Different systems, but both Capitalists.

    Neither did I say I endorse all "Socialism", many forms, such as Marxism I do not endorse at all. Some forms of economic arrangement can be classed as Socialist and Capitalist at the same time. A system of universal self employement, as I have described, fits the definition of Capitalism, as the means of production are privately owned.

    Your confusion comes from accepting the Socialist/Capitalist gradient, that one is either one or the other. The matter of state control is seperate to the matter of autonomy which is seperate to the matter of ownership. We really need to move away from the very limiting language, which muddies discussion and creates confusion.

    The desire to label things in broad categories really stifles understanding.

    So I'll repeat again, the terms "Socialism" and "Capitalism" in their broadest sense cover a range of systems, some of which, lumped together, are mutually exlusive! Socialism, as it is used by Capitalism is used specifically to refer to Marxism, where as Capitalism, is either used by the Left to refer to the current system, or by the Right to refer specifically to a system of free markets, primacy of capital, employement and minimal state power.

    As to what Fasicsm stood for, well, EVERY pathological system makes those claims. It's propaganda.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dumas Walker on Sunday, July 24, 2022 12:12:30
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:02 am

    Socialism and, especially its cousin Communism, are only socialism on paper also. In practice, they are also usually totalitarian and certainly are not really the will of the people. North Korea is a good example. The Stalinist USSR, Maoist China, and Venezuela are also good examples.


    Well Capitalists argue that Capitalism is only Capitalism on paper, and in practice, doesn't exist. Dr What said precisely just that, that there are no actual Capitalist countries now and he is a Capitalist.

    The point is these terms aren't useful, because they can be so broadly applied, and so narrowly applied at the same time, that only confusion results. Discussion can only really be productive if one describes the system by its details.

    It would be like me talking about 'cats', and you imagining house cats when I'm referring to Lions and Jaguars.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Sunday, July 24, 2022 12:44:04
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:24 am

    First of all, I would never advance dogma as part of a central truth.
    Truths have factual elements born from observation and experimentation to establish their systems of tautology. Dogma would advance absolutes regardless of facts, and the idea that "Capitalism must look exactly like this in order for it to be qualified as capitalism," is misguided zealotry, at best.

    Capitalism's central tautological tenets, therefore, have been borne out through history, and I understand them to be as follows, at their "core":

    1. Free Markets, open to easy and unencumbered entrance by new players, to spur genuine competition so that customers have comparable choices and companies have incentives to innovate.

    2. Anti-Trust, so that large companies do not consolidate the marketplace to eliminate the possibility of new entrants from competing or limit the choices that consumers have when determining what to purchase.

    3. Transparency, in understanding the way in which companies are managing their businesses so that shareholders can make informed decisions about where to invest and how to cast votes.

    4. Accountability, in ensuring that for every reward gained there is a proportional and real risk endured in the marketplace by its actors, and that success is rewarded and failure accordingly punished.

    5. Openness, in ensuring that government does not interfere in the participation in its market by creating favored winners or losers, but whose only laws and regulations exist to enforce the above characteristics.

    Those are my views. What do you think? Capitalism shouldn't be a religion. It should be a constant civic virtue to make the system work through freedom, anti-trust, transparency, risk-and-reward, and institutional openness.
    _____

    I think those are the ideals, and I agree with these ideals except for perhaps the details in #4. I do not subsribe to the idea of "reward" or "punishment" at all. This implies that we should make judgements based on actions, not results. I would prefer to say that you are entitled to what you contribute, and are liable for what you consume and use. If you fail, its on you. If you succeed, its on you. You should not have wealth transferred to you for any other reason than a voluntary transfer of goods/services (except for welfare) and you should not escape liabilities either because you just stuffed up and have to bear the consequences.

    In practice, Capitalism is to defined by the following
    1: Private ownership of the means of production, or more specifically, the creation of a property right that allows you to "own" a company, as distinct to simply owning the factory and equipment.
    2: Capital being the 'residual claimant'. That means that in a productive activity, it is Capital that holds ownership of the final product. This isn't always true, but is a feature.
    3: Employment. This is not limited to Capitalism, as Communism also had a system of employment. But I would argue that no one would recognise a system without Employment as Capitalism.
    4: A cultural elevation of Capital holders and a heirarchy of values that prioritises the needs of owners of capital. That is to say, socio-economic values which generate consent and understanding of the arrangements.
    5: Somewhat free markets.
    6: Somewhat free enterprise.
    7: Your #1, #3, #4 and maybe #5.


    These are things, that I think if the system didn't have it, people would not recognise it as Capitalism. It would 'technically' be Capitalism, and fit all your ideas, but would be, by most, not accepted as such.

    The reason I ask is that usually when I discuss another system, which ticks ALL your 5 boxes, people say it is "Socialist", because it misses some of the items I raised. I do not consider the points I made to all be necessary, and that is why I am called "Socialist".

    You see, most people would only really list "free markets" and "free enterprise" and not having the state run everything, but in reality, that alone is insufficient.

    We can at least understand each other on the basis that we both generally support human freedom, openness, economic fairness (what is rightfully yours is what you produce), the ability for people to respond to markets and be in charge of their own economic affairs.

    Paradoxically, my beef with "Capitalism" as it is today, is it is not Capitalist ENOUGH. It does not adequately give human beings self governance. It does not adequately give human beings responsibility for their own economic decisions. It does not adequately acknowledge fundamental property rights of the individual. What gets me, is people say I'm a Socialist/Communist/Collectivist, when my problem with the current system is that it still retains Communist/Collectivist systems!!! We STILL apply the debunked and silly Marxian "LAbour theory of value" and still have Communist structures in the form of the modern corporation, which is, internally, basically a Communist state.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sunday, July 24, 2022 06:49:36
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Sun Jul 24 2022 11:45 am


    I stated that there were different types of Socialism which are in detail, q t you can have State sponsored Capitalism or Libertarianism/Anarcho-Capitali


    The discussion here is whether Fascism is Socialist in nature, since somebody else said it was and your answer was, as far as I remember: "WTF?!"

    I am pretty aware that there is more to socioeconomic models than the Capitalist-Communist spectrum, but if you mention political systems which are a reminiscence of political systems known to be Socialist, it should not come as a surprise that people accuse you of promoting Socialism.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sunday, July 24, 2022 06:59:37
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sun Jul 24 2022 12:44 pm

    The reason I ask is that usually when I discuss another system, which ticks "Socialist".


    Here is the thing:

    No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whole territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.

    The problem comes when you point at a firm which is not a cooperative, and uses a traditional structure with an employer and a bunch of employees, and you claim such model is broken. This is specially problematic because the arguments in doing so are not new and tipically come from Marxist wannabes going bonkers. "See, Jack built the shoe making machine and taught me to use it. He is such an asshat. How come I do all the work for a salary and he gets the profits from the sales? He is a lazy scumbag. Burn the factory!"

    Then there is the fact I think cooperatives only take you so far. As I have mentioned multiple times already, the only cooperatives that stay healthy are horizontal ones. Horizontal cooperatives are limited in what they accomplish by virtue of lacking specialized resources (ie.deeply specialized workers or deeply specialized machinery).


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Kaelon on Sunday, July 24, 2022 09:17:00
    Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Yes. Unions in the Northeast are a disaster, largely because they have outlived their longevity.

    Long out lived their usefulness.

    I don't disagree that new Unions are needed
    to help workers organize and engage in collective bargaining in cases where there is limited competition and corporations aren't engaging
    with a long-term vision in mind (such as Starbucks, Amazon, and the
    like).

    Unions are needed when pretty much all business owners are colluding to kee wages down. But those day are long gone. There's nothing stopping someone who hates their job from getting another one. The only thing holding a worker back is education and experience - and if a worker doesn't have those, then they are going to get a low paying job.

    We need to move away from the socialistic concept of "everyone needs to make a living wage" because that idea is simply untrue.

    But construction work is notoriously corrupt, and construction
    unions are an absurd abuse by and large because union management - not
    the workers - skim the real deals struck with government and big
    business.

    I will argue that the corruption started with the corrupt gov'ts who demanded some sort of kickback for "approving" the construction project, plus all the "zoning regulations" and "inspections" that needed to be done - all of which required some sort of "grease" to be done.

    There is no doubt that Elitists remain in power thanks in large part to Roman-style bread-and-circuses. I mentioned elsewhere that if we
    managed to break down the cycle of junk-food entertainment ("infotainment") and genuine malnutrition of the vast majority of the population, conditions would start to change quickly.

    And those things have already started to happen. Case in point: Disney's latest woke flop Lightyear.

    The only group I feel sorry for are the independent theaters who have nothing worthwhile to put on their big screens.

    I am less concerned about Russia's capability to match the United
    States, let alone the entirety of the Western Alliance, with military
    or economic means. It is, by and large, a third-rate power that has
    been exposed being geopolitically beholden to second-world countries.
    It is a tremendous humiliation for Putin. China, on the other hand,
    has what it takes and has been embarking on a very concerted push.

    Ya, China is more worrying. But they are heading for their own economic collapse now. So I think if we can hold out for a while longer, China will fall on its own.

    You think there's "wokeness" in the military? I would love to
    understand why you think that.

    I'd have to go back and hunt down those articles. Wokeness in any organization is mainly pushing a form of CRT, plus the promotion of the incompetent based on their skin color/sexual orientation/etc. And that's what I've read is happening.

    I think there is an absolute
    authoritarian and fascist bent, especially among junior officers and rank-and-file who have not really been thoroughly indoctrinated into
    the civic virtues that the Armed Forces are renowned for instilling in their organization.

    I think you could make the argument that the military has always been a safe haven for those people. But the military leaders were of a different mind set and kept the authoritatian and fascist people from rising too far up.

    A long time ago, I worked for a company who's leader left. He, of course, too a couple levels of high management with him when he left to start a new company. That left a "management vacuum" in the old company which then promoted people who probably should not have been promoted to those positions. The end result was predictable.

    I don't watch what's happening in the military, so I don't have the details. But to me, it looks like something similar happened: People were promoted into positions they should never have been promoted into.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Arelor on Sunday, July 24, 2022 09:17:00
    Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

    Sorry, but people is inherently untrustworthy and this is evident for anybody who ever tries to push forward a personal project that needs support from other people. Friends are your friends only as long as it does not cost them any effort. Once your friendship requires
    maintenance on their part, you can kiss your friends goodbie.

    The Bruce Schneier book "Liars and Outliars" comes to mind. He goes over why most people are honest, why a few people are almost always dishonest, and why honest people will sometimes be dishonest. It's actually quite interesting.

    But I disagree with your idea that people are inherently untrustworthy. They are completely trustworthy: to do what is in **their**, not **your**, best interests. Once you understand that, you don't do things like always pay upfront, for example.

    The problem comes in with the mentality that we can **make** others act in **our** best interests. This mentality can never work and trying to force people to do so will make them sabotage things.

    Success comes from realizing that most people will backstab you for a
    bag of chewing gum and keeping a close circle of trustworthy friends
    from the 5% that would not murder their mothers for pocket change.

    Success comes from realizing that no one but you will act in your best interests and the others will always act in their best interests. From that you set up an agreement that, for the most part, is in both of your best interests, with substantial penalties if either of you break the agreement.

    This type of system has been in use for a long, long time now and is very successful.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BORAXMAN on Sunday, July 24, 2022 10:32:00
    It would be like me talking about 'cats', and you imagining house cats when I'
    referring to Lions and Jaguars.

    You would have to be talking in very broad terms for someone to make that mistake, though.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Sunday, July 24, 2022 14:51:52
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Sun Jul 24 2022 09:17 am

    The Bruce Schneier book "Liars and Outliars" comes to mind. He goes over wh most people are honest, why a few people are almost always dishonest, and wh honest people will sometimes be dishonest. It's actually quite interesting.

    But I disagree with your idea that people are inherently untrustworthy. The are completely trustworthy: to do what is in **their**, not **your**, best interests. Once you understand that, you don't do things like always pay upfront, for example.


    That is all good in paper.

    My observation from playing hundres of board games is that people is actually very bad at deciding for the best option for themselves and that there are lots of arbitrary psychological factors kicking in. This also applies in real life in spades, but I bring up board games because the impact is measurable.

    I can count by scores the number of times I have offered a deal in a board game that provided both myself and the second party with a huge boost, and the offer has been discarded in favor of a move that placed the other player in a losing position. I can also count by scores the number of times I have made a move assuming the next player in turn order would act in his best interest, making both he and me a lot of points and destroying the third player, only for the second player to make a suicidal move and grant victory to the third player instead.

    Many of those botches were made in games with PERFECT INFORMATION.

    Fast forward to real life, I can tell so many stories about people backstabbing a third party for 3000 EUR of benefit when a deal between the two would have made them tens of thousand of Euro. It is freaking nuts.

    History is full of losers who did not only lose, but they pulled lots of people alongside them in their trip to Hell. Hitler comes to mind.

    This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at home bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of resources, usually because they never gave a damn for Jack to being with.

    It would not be a problem if people lacked loyalty ONLY. THe problem is they are stupid in addition to that.





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  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Arelor on Monday, July 25, 2022 08:32:00
    Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-

    That is all good in paper.

    Many things are good on paper, but Bruce is talking about real life.

    My observation from playing hundres of board games is that people is actually very bad at deciding for the best option for themselves and
    that there are lots of arbitrary psychological factors kicking in. This also applies in real life in spades, but I bring up board games because the impact is measurable.

    The problem with board games is that they are games. Is a person who stands to lose their imaginary sword going to play the game the same way if they were going to lose their car? No.

    So, yes, people will make bad decisions in games - because they have less to lose and don't care.

    Fast forward to real life, I can tell so many stories about people backstabbing a third party for 3000 EUR of benefit when a deal between
    the two would have made them tens of thousand of Euro. It is freaking nuts.

    Yes, it is. And that's an example of a child-minded person who values short term gains over long term ones. And is a good example of how society is keeping people child-like longer - to the detriment of society.

    This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because
    Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates
    that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a
    limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at home bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of resources, usually because they never gave a damn for Jack to being
    with.

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    I would argue that Jack didn't have friends. He had a bunch of users who took advantage of him. He was willfully ignorant if he couldn't see that.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Monday, July 25, 2022 11:19:01
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

    I would argue that Jack didn't have friends. He had a bunch of users who to advantage of him. He was willfully ignorant if he couldn't see that.


    I agree. My point is precisely that actual friends you can rely on for anything, even if trivial, are much, much more scarce than people think.


    A funny thing is that University Mafias are composed of people who are not friends to each other but actualy cover for each other. You can tell of Cathedratics who don't like somebody, yet they still do favors to that person in order to get the favor in return later. Meanwhile, a lot of average folks don't get that relationships have a maintenance cost and if you are not contributing at all you will get eventually cut out.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Monday, July 25, 2022 11:45:48
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

    The problem with board games is that they are games. Is a person who stands lose their imaginary sword going to play the game the same way if they were going to lose their car? No.


    Many competitive boardgamers take playing Brass more seriously than they take managing the domestic accounting. They don't make mistakes because it is a game and they don't care. They make mistakes because of a number of reasons:

    Many of these reasons are psychological. The last turn of my first Catan game I played was something like:

    ALFRED: Hey, Tom, if you give me a Wood card, I will give you a Stone card. RICHARD: Alfred, if Tom gets a single Stone he will do a Development action and win this turn.
    FRED: Don't nobody listen to Richard! I think he does not want Alfred to get Wood for some reason.
    ALFRED: Fuck you, Richard, I am not going to stop a deal just because you don't like it. Tom, do you accept the deal?
    TOM: I do. (Cards change hands). With the Stone I got and this Wheat I Develop. I win.

    ie: Public information such as that Tom had been collecting the resources needed to win for a good while weighted less for Alfred and Fred than the perceived idea that they were screwing me over by going on with a deal that got a gameover for the three of us.

    These guys were genuinely surprised when they lost. They genuinely thought they were screwing me over and thought I was trying to prevent Alfred from building whatever with Wood.

    I know it is a freaking game, but many economic simulators reflect patterns often seen in reality, and one common pattern is going out of one's way to screw somebody you think to be a threat and exposing oneself to bad consequences as a result.

    The other most common pattern is exchanging resources with another player, which then uses the resources you just gave him to destroy you (ie: you set a trade agreement with another player and provide him with ore in exchange of food. Then the player uses the ore to build a tank army and run you over). How many Heterosexual Whites are funding political parties and purchasing products from firms that are openly torpedoing Heterosexual Whites? Paying a subscription for a streaming service which will use your money to generate propaganda against you is well out of the realm of board games and happens all the freaking time.




    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Monday, July 25, 2022 14:27:53
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

    This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates
    that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at home bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of


    this is the 'hare with many friends' aesop fable.

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    that doesn't happen anymore.
    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Monday, July 25, 2022 16:33:00
    Here is the thing:

    No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whole territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.

    They don't like if if you are trying to force them into participating in
    one. That is one thing that confuses me... there are some people who
    really want us to go to a cooperative or socialist model for our whole
    economy. However, if I point out that it would be fine if they want to get
    a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they
    are not at all interested in doing so.

    Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something they
    don't want to.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Cool! I broke his brain!" - Bart on Principal Skinner

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 23:57:00
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: MRO to Dr. What on Mon Jul 25 2022 02:27 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

    This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly a Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dicta
    that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at h bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of


    this is the 'hare with many friends' aesop fable.

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 00:09:00
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to ARELOR on Mon Jul 25 2022 04:33 pm

    Here is the thing:

    No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whol territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.

    They don't like if if you are trying to force them into participating in one. That is one thing that confuses me... there are some people who
    really want us to go to a cooperative or socialist model for our whole economy. However, if I point out that it would be fine if they want to get a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they
    are not at all interested in doing so.

    Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something they don't want to.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Cool! I broke his brain!" - Bart on Principal Skinner


    The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their part. Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable or undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major, it may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a need for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communities so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job. Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not be the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Arelor on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 07:41:00
    Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I agree. My point is precisely that actual friends you can rely on for anything, even if trivial, are much, much more scarce than people
    think.

    Yet people you can trust, to a certain extent, are much more numerous than you think.

    A funny thing is that University Mafias are composed of people who are
    not friends to each other but actualy cover for each other. You can
    tell of Cathedratics who don't like somebody, yet they still do favors
    to that person in order to get the favor in return later.

    I'd label those people as "co-dependants". But I get your point.
    But they do have a social structure that allows them to trust one another - at least somewhat.

    Meanwhile, a
    lot of average folks don't get that relationships have a maintenance
    cost and if you are not contributing at all you will get eventually cut out.

    That's the problem of people staying in a child-like mentality much longer than normal. But that's a different problem.


    ... Success is just a matter of luck. Ask any failure.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to MRO on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 07:41:00
    MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


    ... copy *.txt > brain
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Dumas Walker on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 07:41:00
    Dumas Walker wrote to ARELOR <=-

    They don't like if if you are trying to force them into participating
    in one. That is one thing that confuses me... there are some people
    who really want us to go to a cooperative or socialist model for our
    whole economy.

    It's not so surprising. Our "education" system has been teaching them that socialism is a great thing for years. But they never get to the facts about how every time it's been tried, it's failed - in exactly the same ways.

    However, if I point out that it would be fine if they
    want to get a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they are not at all interested in doing so.

    That's because they are useless people. They want others to do the work (since they incapable) and they want to reap the benefits (namely to not have to actually do work anymore).

    Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something
    they don't want to.

    Their interest is the same as a scammer: How little work can I do to get something from someone else?


    ... What part of "NO" didn't you understand...?
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 07:33:00
    Dr. What wrote to MRO <=-

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    In the case of severely intellectually challenged persons, like MRO,
    that's exactly what it means. He is incapable of understanding
    something abstract or outside of his limited experience. Just look at
    his recent commentary on the Moon landings in the DoveNet General
    sub-board...



    ... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 18:11:00
    The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their part. Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable or undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major, it may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a need for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communities so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job. Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not be the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either.

    We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist persons
    I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will still
    be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a liberal
    arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope to gain
    favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who would be in charge.

    I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "I didn't know chicks in videos wore underpants!"- Beavis

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DR. WHAT on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 18:12:00
    However, if I point out that it would be fine if they
    want to get a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they are not at all interested in doing so.

    That's because they are useless people. They want others to do the work (sinc
    they incapable) and they want to reap the benefits (namely to not have to actually do work anymore).

    Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something
    they don't want to.

    Their interest is the same as a scammer: How little work can I do to get something from someone else?


    You are probably correct on both counts. I am sure some of them are
    scammers as you describe. I believe some of them honestly believe in the cause, but would also likely be looking not to do the work.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Kills millions of germs on contract"

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 23:06:48
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 11:57 pm

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    you need to look deeper into that.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 23:07:04
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dr. What to MRO on Tue Jul 26 2022 07:41 am

    MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

    And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


    ... copy *.txt > brain

    yeah it does
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Brokenmind@VERT/TIABBS to Dumas Walker on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 19:56:37
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Tue Jul 26 2022 06:11 pm

    We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist persons I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will still be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a liberal arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope to gain favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who would be in charge.

    I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.

    A lot of people will be in for a rude awakening if the United States ever becomes a socialist country. I have had family that came from behind the Iron curtin after world war 2. I have had friends that have come from socialist countries due to all sorts of issues that are a result of a communist / socialist country. I know people that have immigrated here to the us legally and they are terrified that it will happen here as well beacuse they see it starting to happen here

    BrokenMind

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Insane Asylum BBS - tiabbs.synchro.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 14:05:00
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Tue Jul 26 2022 06:11 pm

    The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their par Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major, may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a n for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communit so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job. Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either

    We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist persons I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will still
    be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a liberal arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope to gain favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who would be in charge.

    I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "I didn't know chicks in videos wore underpants!"- Beavis


    Canada's healthcare system is a good example of limitations of services.
    Some US cities have multiple hospitals and clinics that may provide
    or advanced radiology services. In Canada you might have to drive 100 miles to another city. Second opinions requiring a drastic change in treatmenrt may not be approved. The service you receive will be the best for the budget they provide, but don't ask for more.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BROKENMIND on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 15:49:00
    I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.

    A lot of people will be in for a rude awakening if the United States ever beco
    s a socialist country. I have had family that came from behind the Iron curti
    after world war 2. I have had friends that have come from socialist countries e to all sorts of issues that are a result of a communist / socialist country.
    know people that have immigrated here to the us legally and they are terrifie
    that it will happen here as well beacuse they see it starting to happen here

    Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as
    well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if
    it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.

    Some of them must live in a dreamworld.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Dude! We have the power supreme!" - Butthead

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 16:14:00
    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    you need to look deeper into that.

    I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
    team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

    Several years ago, a tornado went through a town in Arkansas. The only
    homes left standing were HoH homes because they were the only ones built to
    the latest code.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Keep your stick on the ice

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 23:04:25
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:14 pm

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    you need to look deeper into that.

    I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
    team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

    some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold off to someone else.
    and pretty damn soon too.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Thursday, July 28, 2022 00:37:00
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:14 pm

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    you need to look deeper into that.

    I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
    team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

    Several years ago, a tornado went through a town in Arkansas. The only homes left standing were HoH homes because they were the only ones built to the latest code.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Keep your stick on the ice

    Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of the house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kids were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to
    prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the
    house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home
    is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a
    hood rat a new crack house.

    One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some houses in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by
    Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they
    were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Thursday, July 28, 2022 14:22:30
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 12:37 am


    Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of the house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kids were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home


    https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/regional/florida/habitat-for-humanity-harsh-reality-hits-home/67-326566274


    i'm in wisconsin. every habitat for humanity home i know of no longer has that resident.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Thursday, July 28, 2022 11:00:00
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 27 2022 11:04 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:14 pm

    that doesn't happen anymore.

    Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

    you need to look deeper into that.

    I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people wh could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to ma payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes

    some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold off to someone else.
    and pretty damn soon too.

    Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those that need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify.
    They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mortage off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is interest rate is 0%.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Thursday, July 28, 2022 16:19:00
    Canada's healthcare system is a good example of limitations of services.
    Some US cities have multiple hospitals and clinics that may provide
    or advanced radiology services. In Canada you might have to drive 100 miles to another city. Second opinions requiring a drastic change in treatmenrt may not be approved. The service you receive will be the best for the budget they provide, but don't ask for more.

    I was talking to a born-Canadian once who volunteered to serve in the US
    Army. It seems like we are often seeing news articles here in the US that
    give the VA healthcare system a black eye, but he told me he takes
    advantage of his VA benefits, as a US veteran, and not his Canadian government-provided benefits. He said that, in his opinion, the VA (and US care in general) was better than what he could get at home.


    * SLMR 2.1a * So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Thursday, July 28, 2022 16:20:00
    I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make
    payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

    some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold off to someone else.
    and pretty damn soon too.

    That is possible for sure, especially if the persons who originally own the home don't keep their payments up.

    I agree, some folks are not meant to own them. The government
    encouragement to persons to buy homes is part of what lead to our housing market crisis a few years back... and, yes, I do know that there were other reasons, including banks that took advantage of these same folks.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Goodness! That was close! I almost gave a damn.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Thursday, July 28, 2022 16:25:00
    Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of the house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kids were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home
    is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a hood rat a new crack house.

    Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H,
    participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially
    help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they
    do have to go through a selection process.

    One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some houses in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.

    I am guessing that Jimmy puts them to work. :) 20+ years ago, Carter was
    here in KY working with a similar group in an event called "Hammering in
    the Hills" where they were building homes in poorer areas of Appalachia.

    Jimmy Carter was not great as a President when it comes to economics, but
    he is one of the few recent ones that has really put an effort behind
    trying to make lives better for people.


    * SLMR 2.1a * What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind!

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Thursday, July 28, 2022 22:32:03
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:00 am

    Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those that need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify. They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mortage off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is interest rate is 0%.


    nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Thursday, July 28, 2022 22:33:34
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:19 pm

    I was talking to a born-Canadian once who volunteered to serve in the US Army. It seems like we are often seeing news articles here in the US that give the VA healthcare system a black eye, but he told me he takes
    advantage of his VA benefits, as a US veteran, and not his Canadian government-provided benefits. He said that, in his opinion, the VA (and US care in general) was better than what he could get at home.



    that's pretty bad because the va is known to have a lot of issues.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Thursday, July 28, 2022 22:36:09
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:25 pm


    Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they do have to go through a selection process.


    no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people have what it takes to help build a home.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Thursday, July 28, 2022 23:46:00
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:25 pm

    Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kid were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a hood rat a new crack house.

    Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they do have to go through a selection process.

    One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some hou in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.

    I am guessing that Jimmy puts them to work. :) 20+ years ago, Carter was here in KY working with a similar group in an event called "Hammering in
    the Hills" where they were building homes in poorer areas of Appalachia.

    Jimmy Carter was not great as a President when it comes to economics, but
    he is one of the few recent ones that has really put an effort behind
    trying to make lives better for people.


    * SLMR 2.1a * What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind!

    Indeed. Carter is better know for what he did outside the office than when
    he was in the office.

    One of the my teachers was a member of the Sotuhwest Michigan Economics Club, and each month they would bring in a speaker. He attended the time Carter spoke. He liked Carter becuase there were times when Carter failed, but was also ahead of the curve when it came to energy conservation.

    After the speech, the line was long for getting autographs, so he went tothe restroom first. While finishing up a tthe urinal, a Secret Serviceman came
    in, checked all the stalls, then gave the "all clear" for Carter to use the ba throom. Of all the stalls and urinals, he parks himself right next to my teacher. My teacher started talking politics and economics, then asked if
    he he could shake his hand. Carter said, " I hate to be impolite, but maybe
    we should wash our hands first." i guess it's standard operating procedure
    for Sercet Service to check the hands of people before they shake hands with the people they protect to make sure they do not have blades or needles or other dangerous items.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Friday, July 29, 2022 13:53:47
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:46 pm

    Indeed. Carter is better know for what he did outside the office than when he was in the office.


    he's known for what he did in office but not in a good way.

    One of the my teachers was a member of the Sotuhwest Michigan Economics Club, and each month they would bring in a speaker. He attended the time Carter spoke. He liked Carter becuase there were times when Carter failed, but was also ahead of the curve when it came to energy conservation.

    After the speech, the line was long for getting autographs, so he went tothe restroom first. While finishing up a tthe urinal, a Secret Serviceman came in, checked all the stalls, then gave the "all clear" for Carter to use the

    he's good at being a figurehead or doing sound bites.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Friday, July 29, 2022 11:31:00
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: MRO to Moondog on Thu Jul 28 2022 10:32 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:00 am

    Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those t need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify. They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mort off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is interest rate is 0%.


    nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.

    The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't need help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people are born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to climb further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have to fight their own peers pulling them down.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Friday, July 29, 2022 11:43:00
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 10:36 pm

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:25 pm


    Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and th do have to go through a selection process.


    no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people

    That is why they are given jobs they can do or are under supervision for
    people who do this all the time. At a former employer we had guys that had about a hundred H4H houses under their belt. They knew how to frame, do drywall, roof, do plumbing and electricty as part of their regular trades.
    The random volunteers end up painting, sweeping, picking up debris, or act as runners and fetch items for the experts. You might even see the new owners
    and their families helping in planting trees, doing landscaping, and other menial labor. Even if they are building one or two houses, other houses are being painted, repaired or general cleanup is required.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Friday, July 29, 2022 14:57:00
    Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they
    do have to go through a selection process.

    no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people h
    e what it takes to help build a home.

    They don't give them the hard jobs unless they have experience in home building.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Kill them all! .... Let God sort them out.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Saturday, July 30, 2022 01:25:43
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 11:31 am


    nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.

    The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't need help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people are born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to climb further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have to fight their own peers pulling them down.


    that's just a bunch of words without meaning. i got myself out of the hole. other people can do that too.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Saturday, July 30, 2022 10:12:00
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Jul 30 2022 01:25 am

    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 11:31 am


    nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handou

    The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't n help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people are born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to climb further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have fight their own peers pulling them down.


    that's just a bunch of words without meaning. i got myself out of the hole. other people can do that too.

    Everyone is different. Some take longer to learn concepts such as saving moneey and spending within their means. Some are less willing to take risks.
    Mileage varies. If we have a chance to teach people how to take care of themselves, this helps everybody eventually. It is better than hiding under
    a rock and letting the world unravel.

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  • From Brokenmind@VERT/TIABBS to Dumas Walker on Sunday, July 31, 2022 18:28:50
    Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
    By: Dumas Walker to BROKENMIND on Wed Jul 27 2022 03:49 pm

    Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.
    Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

    I agree with you and it's really sad to see

    BrokenMind

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